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Episode Description
Crypto didn’t remove trust — it refactored it.
Which means the real question isn’t whether blockchains work… it’s whether the people who build them bear any responsibility for what happens next.
In this episode we extend the previous conversation on crypto literacy, privacy UX, and incentive design to tackle a hard question with no clean answers:
Do builders have responsibility beyond tooling?
We explore the “blacksmith problem,” the myth of neutral systems, and how zero-knowledge, chain analysis, and UX choices shape outcomes — intentionally or not. This is not a price talk episode. It’s about the ethics, incentives, and trade-offs embedded in decentralized infrastructure.
Topics Covered
• Crypto literacy and centralization of expertise
• Privacy vs usability (and why it’s not zero-sum)
• Trust: from institutions → networks → intermediaries
• The “neutral tools” dilemma in Web3
• When incentives create harm (and who owns it)
• ZK systems, mixers, forensics, and emergent behavior
• Builders vs system designers vs policymakers
Key Question
Where does technical responsibility end, and ethical responsibility begin?
If you’re new here
This episode continues directly from last week’s cliffhanger. Go watch that one first if you want the full arc.
For Commenters
Answer this in one word:
Do builders have responsibility beyond tooling? — YES or NO?
Transcript
Click to expand transcript
It’s a Bitcoin. I’m gonna I’m the only one that’s making your money. You listening to the Bitcoin market. So hold on. Bitcoin. >> Yeah. Should we all do our best Friday? It’s the Bitcoin. >> It’s I don’t know if that’s my favorite intro. It’s up there for sure >> for for all time intros. >> Yeah. >> Like better than in West Philadelphia. Born. >> No, no, no. For us. Just for us. >> Oh, for us. Okay. Yeah. That’s probably our best. >> It definitely is the best out of all of the other shows out there. >> Yes. Of all the crypto shows, which according to the tweet I saw today, crypto YouTube is tanking. >> Good. We can take it back over. >> Yeah. >> The rest of the show suck. >> Watch that out and bring back the authenticity. Hello everybody. Welcome to the Bitcoin podcast. This is season 2 episode. Without me writing it in there, I don’t know what episode this is. So this is an episode. The title of this episode is do builders have responsibility beyond tooling? So if you I’m the host that talks first. My name is D. I talk second usually. Dr. Corey Petty. >> Wait, hold on. I’m the third one. But your audio levels sound a little bit quiet. >> Me? >> Uh D. >> Do I sound better? My audio? >> No, you you sounded fine, Corey. >> He sounds good to me. >> Oh, do you read me? He sounds great. >> Yeah. >> That might be your shitty audio and your mic goes out all the time. >> Who are you again, Jesse? >> Yeah, I’m Jesse. >> Yeah. Hey, you got to like you got to put your in You got to move to your left a little bit, Jesse. >> Why? >> Well, look on the vertical. Yeah. >> Oh, I I cut that out. I don’t look at that thing. >> Oh, you don’t? Okay. Well, anyways. Hey guys, welcome to the Bitcoin Podcast. Listen, if you’re just joining us, last week, Corey ended last week um threatening to fight me next time about the questions that I ask. Um >> today, we’re going to collect on that. Corey, do you still want to fight me over the question, do builders have responsibility beyond tooling? >> What do you mean by tooling? >> Define Wait, wait, wait. Define tooling. >> I’m asking the questions. I’m the question master. >> Yeah. Your qu Yeah. If you’re a question master, you need to understand your question. Is there a good It’s a shitty >> But thank you for the promotion. I’m the question asker. Okay. And I’m asking the question. >> Question master sounds better. >> Okay. I am the master of the questions. Sorry. >> What’s tooling? >> Um I don’t know. Builders build tools, right? Am I right or am I wrong? >> Okay. So it’s a shitty question because you don’t even know what tooling is. >> I mean I know you’re tooling right now. Answer the question. >> Answer the question. >> I will reform the question like a proper politician. and then answer that >> question. >> Uh do developers have responsibility beyond the software that they build? Do they take ownership of the software after they release it? If someone uses their software >> question sucks forgotten purposes, is it is it the developers per fault? That’s what you’re getting at. That’s what we’d like to discuss. >> Yeah. >> It’s not my fault. >> No, >> it ain’t my fault. Let’s let’s frame this in three ways. We’re going to frame this three ways, okay? There’s the no responsibility answer. Hey, all I do is build tools, baby. That’s all I do. Then there’s the partial responsibility answer. Hey, the intent with what I build this tool matters. And then there’s fullon responsibility. The outcomes from whoever used this tool, this thing, this technology matters. You used a tobacco factory to produce more cigarettes. Are you a mass murderer of people who have lung cancer? >> Should you go to jail? >> I’m asking the questions here, but I mean a lot some people some people would say yes. I know in the state that I live in, which is Kentucky, >> the maker of cigarettes, R.J. Reynolds has to on every single tobacco store put a poster on the top of the door that says tobacco is responsible for killing 1,200 people a day and it’s on every door on every tobacco or alcohol store in all of Kentucky. >> There’s more to it. >> You can’t just say it depends to everything, Mr. Science. >> I sure can. I will. I will continue to do It depends how much. >> So like there’s more like legally speaking if you want to get into the legal ease of this type of thing. >> It depends on how much control the person has over the tool after it’s released. >> Interesting response. Okay. If I have the ability to thwart >> those who are using the software that I built, if we’re talking about software, >> thwart to keep people from doing certain actions, then it is now my responsibility. I am responsible for the ill use of that software. In the event that I cannot have I have no control over the use of the software, then it remains something that’s currently under debate. >> So, if we’re going back to the analogy that I used from the last episode, right, King, you’re blacksmith. You’re getting your blacksmith on, right? You’re making swords. You’re making axes. You’re making nunchucks with swords on the end of them. You’re making ninja stars for some reason. I don’t know. You’re in Britain, but you figured it out, right? You’re making throwing knives. You’re making uh what are the things that go on the end of an arrow? Arrow head. Right. >> Good one. >> That’s what it is. That’s how the guy actually named it back in the day. He said, “What do we call this We call it arrow head.” Anyways, um King comes down. Well, you’re already making murder tools, so that’s a bad anal. Let me take away all those tools. You’re just a blacksmith. You blacksmith stuff. King comes down. He’s like, “Hey, here’s the thing. I need a torture device. It’s going to be specifically made to kill people terribly.” And you’re like, “Well, wait a second. I don’t want to be responsible for that moral injust to the human to the humankind. I just I’m just a blacksmith. I’m a poor old blacksmith.” Right. And but you build it and now it’s out there and it’s >> What happens if you don’t build it? You get killed. >> Well, yeah, probably. I mean, >> not a good example, >> but that’s adding to the analogy, right? I’m talking about this analogy, right? So, like maybe you don’t maybe the king’s like, “Ah, okay, I’ll fight another blacksmith.” But never nevertheless, like you’ve built this murder device. So, like, you know, in crypto, it’s it’s very controversial right now. There’s a lot of people fighting it. There’s a lot going on. I’m not saying I’m neither here nor there, by the way. I’m just saying I’m just presenting this. And then like um there’s the dude, what’s his name? Rowan. What’s his name? Ron the guy the the the >> Roman Roman. Okay, I got one word wrong. One >> Roman storm. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like the um >> what was it? Cash. Was it something cash? >> Tornado cash. >> Cash. >> Tornado cash. Right. And he’s in trouble right now. Right. He’s >> right. But he’s just like, “Hey, you know, like I built the thing. I don’t have any control.” Well, >> there’s more to it than that. But yes, that is the that is the defense. I just built it. But he had control. Oh, he did have control. >> Some He had some control. >> The plot thickens. I thought he had no control. I thought he just launched that on Ethereum was like, “It’s gone. It’s running.” >> When you when you launch smart contract, there’s still places in which you can maintain control. Like kill switches, you can pause things. You can >> That’s true. >> move money. It depends like like what goes on the blockchain doesn’t change, but what you put on the blockchain could allow you to change things, right? So, like I can put in dead man switches. I can I can I can put in depending on how things going, I can just freeze people’s money. I can transfer on their behalf. I can do all kinds of things. It’s at least it’s just transparent. >> So, that’s a kind of a >> I thought that was a crazy thing about smart contracts when Jesse and I did crypto zombies until it got impossibly hard for me. What is that you could put all these like private functions in smart contracts that nobody even sees? You can see it. >> Yeah, but >> that’s not what a private function is, D. >> That’s not what a private function is. >> Well, not private function. I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to say. But there’s stuff like you can code in there and you can like hide in the smart contract unless somebody’s like really good. >> What do you What do you mean hide in a smart contract? >> Internal internal functions that don’t get don’t get externally called. >> There we go. That’s what I’m talking about. >> Is that what you’re Is that what you mean? Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like internal functions that you can like like you they’re just not external. They’re not externally callable. >> Yeah. >> But you’re not hiding anything hiding. There’s no hiding. >> You can you can audit the entire contract. So like I I don’t Yeah. >> Now when you look at the call data, you only have function signatures. And so unless you upload the contract code along with it and the AI, it’s it’s a little more difficult to understand what it does, but you can deconstruct it if you want to. >> Anyway, >> yeah. Um, >> what do you think, Jess? >> We me and me and me and Jared had a very long like hour and a half podcast on the ethics of building infrastructure that dove into this concept. And I have a pretty strong stance on it and that like there’s an there’s an intention to build something. >> Yeah. >> When you’re when you’re building when you’re a developer, you have an intention. you have a purpose to what you’re building and you structure it such that it serves that purpose. Um, and then you release it. And when you release it, it’s subject to whatever controls and constraints you put on it. That could be I can pause it. That could be I don’t have any ownership. I don’t get to do anything with it. Um, and a bunch of other stuff. And then when it gets used by people, they may use it in ways in which you didn’t intend them to. So you have this like stark step function on the moment you release it into the wild where people can the ethics of people using the stuff you went out is going to be different than the ethics in which you built it. >> But the tool is a tool. It can only just it can just be used. And so in my opinion, regardless of legality, the intention of building has a lot to do with the like our ability to put responsibility on the builders. Um >> the ability to put responsibers of tornado cash. Was it to just mix funds, offiscate origins? Yeah. amounts >> like the intention of tornado cashache was to give people privacy. >> It was not to it was not to purposefully allow people to do funds, right? Or help help North Korea. The purpose was to not help them. >> It so happened that they did it because >> they could. Now there’s a lot of I because there’s debate on whether or not they knew what was happening and did nothing about it if they could. But like that’s neither here or there. That’s like a legal that’s a legal situation on aiding a betting based on the knowledge and the ability to stop it. And that’s why more often than not when you’re building privacy software the general recommendation is to have no ownership over it. Like ownership is risk when it comes to things like privacy. >> Oh, that’s deep, dude. Clip that >> Hey yo, clip that >> Wait, I got to say clip that or it’s not the the software. >> I don’t think it’s going to work that. I hope it does. >> Clip that. Wait, say that one more time. It was so powerful. I forgot it already. >> Ownership is risk when it comes to privacy. So like and this is why I mean even just thinking about the the the burden of managing people’s data when you have it in a centralized context uh you have to keep track of a lot of things for a long period of time and then service people like say you you service the UK >> serve them up and they have GDPR they’re able they have the they have the right to demand demand you delete all traces of their data on your platform. How do you feel about you? >> What if it can’t do that? >> Oh, >> then they get shut the down. >> What if it can’t get shut down? >> Well, then then they they then they don’t have control over it. So, they’ve done the right thing. In my opinion, they’ve basically made it such that they have no control over these things. >> How do y’all feel about UK food? >> Bland. >> Terrible. >> It’s fine. Just bland. I don’t think they’re known for for their food. >> Fish and chips. Yo, I saw me >> I saw a tweet the other day. It was like UK, you don’t have to eat like this anymore. Like the war was won a long time ago. >> You can change your eating habits to reflect. >> Bangers and mash is not a banger. >> Yeah, there’s curry. They’re good at making curry over there. That’s for damn sure, >> man. Yeah. >> Anyway, sorry I changed the subject abruptly because it was just on my mind. I was talking about that with somebody not too long ago just how UK food is so disgusting. But um so we need to resolve this because we need to move on. There’s another segment coming. There’s other things we need to discuss. But what it boils down to is that um between the spectrum of responsibility is up to the ability what you say the ability of the responsibility of the buildability. >> What? >> That’s what you said. You spit those bars, bro. >> No, >> I don’t even know what the hell I said anymore because of what you just came out of your mouth. Like you you did that. >> No. No. Um, honestly, it’s going to be an ongoing thing. And I think that if when it comes to the legality of it, the president is up to the courts and there’s really nothing else. If you want to save your ass, don’t give like if you’re going to build something that’s private, don’t insert yourself with the ability to control it. >> Yeah. Don’t do that. >> Um and if you want to I mean like even just from a laziness standpoint, the less you need to manage the the better. Now you’re that puts a lot of the responsibility into the in the user’s hands. >> Mhm. >> And that becomes a different type of problem because users don’t want their own responsibility more often than not or like I guess the average person doesn’t. They want to offload it. So it depends on what you’re doing. I mean like that’s the answer for everything, but it depends on what you’re doing. There’s there’s trade-offs here. >> Do you think the majority of people were meant to just be sheep? >> Yeah. So in terms of adopting privacy tech in terms of people who build it and people who use it what is critical adoption in terms of percentage of the total population if most people are sheep >> optionality >> no no but what do what would you consider like >> infrastructure >> what what would I consider what >> well what like what what percentage of the total population using these tools would you consider success? Oh, all of them, but they don’t know they’re using it. >> Yeah, it’s really hard practically speaking because people don’t even custody their private key. >> Well, that’s what I’m saying. Like like I I I think it’s such a deep infrastructure level that like I imagine entities like Coinbase and Middleman to be built on top of what I consider to be the most important thing. And then but like but what happens was is like in the event that they they don’t like that platform, they can leave it and join something different that offers them a better service >> because the infrastructure is open. That’s that’s what I care about. >> So like everyone uses this stuff, they just don’t know it because they’re they’re they signed up for some business that uses this stuff. >> Well, >> and then when like that business fails them or goes under, they don’t lose all their data >> or whatever it is they’re doing with that business. and that business and because of it’s built this way and there’s there’s real competition that business is then incentivized to actually serve their users because there’s always a threat that that user can leave with their data. Mhm. >> So, so I guess real quick before we roll out, if you guys are watching right now, there’s like a lot of you. Do builders, do the developers in crypto have responsibility beyond tooling? Yes or no? >> Just put it in the comments. >> Beyond tooling for what? >> The these associating tooling just whatever they’re building. >> Yeah, just whatever. Okay. >> That’s why I didn’t like the question. His tooling is very different. >> So, if you make something, are you responsible for what you make? Basically. >> Yeah. That’s what he’s asking. >> Yes or no? Just just to see how just to see how people feel. You know, it’s an opinion. Nicki Minaj or Megan the Stallion. Clearly everyone’s >> you know you can actually I didn’t realize you can make gun parts up to 80% complete as long and there’s like some sort of like list from uh who uh who does uh firearm control in the US. They’re like the FDA but for firearms. I >> mean like it’s not the NRA like >> it’s the firearms alcohol tobacco crew or something like that. It’s like >> basically they they say they say uh that constitutes less than 80%. >> And then you can you you can’t sell and you can’t sell you can sell unfinished gun parts but if you sell finished gun parts you have to serialize it, right? >> Yep. I really don’t know anything about guns, but you mentioned it in three episodes now. So, are you like are you about to get gatastic down there? Where where you stay? >> What are you doing about it? >> You just trying to kill our YouTube. >> ATF. The Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives. >> Oh, yeah. D was right. >> Yeah. >> Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearm, Explosives. >> ATF. >> That’s >> which is the part of the DOJ. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> So, here’s the thing. We want to switch the segment up a little bit. It’s going to be it’s going to be a hard tone switch. So, for those of you that are in here, you’re in for a whirl. It’s >> a hard tone switch. But before we do that, this is what we need from you guys. >> There’s a QR code. >> Right above Cory’s ear. >> I don’t think they can scan that, >> especially on their phone. If they’re on their phone, >> they’ll figure it out. >> That’s for sure. >> Yeah. >> And scan this. Do what you need to do, right? Do do whatever. I think you could put links though. You can put links in the in the comments that they could go to. >> Could somebody do that while I’m doing this? Right. So, >> uh, >> did you make it Discord like as a subdomain like Discordthecoin? >> GG. >> Yeah, it is. I put it in the website. I forgot what it actually Let me check real quick. >> Nevertheless, guys, go join the Discord. We’re up in there. people watching the show right now are up in there and um >> or we didn’t I don’t see a domain >> just in case. >> Use the link. I have it right here. Put it >> shut your hole. >> No, you use your computer between your two holes up there and put the link there. >> All right. So, that being said, I want a hard switch. Core, you did something that was pretty awesome this week. I’m working so I didn’t have a chance to dive into it. But you wrote an article and you posted that article. I want to talk about >> two articles. It’s just the other one’s getting vetted before it gets posted. >> Vetted? What? You got a You got a editor, bro? >> I have a number of editors. They got to get fact checked, man. If there’s a lot of >> You have a I talk a lot of in this article. I got fact checked. >> How long does it take to get edited? It’s just an article. It’s a lot of facts. >> Nevertheless, >> we’re gonna make diagrams and it’s going to make it pretty. You know, it’s just for work. But like the other one I made for personal reasons. This was not for work. >> Let me rephrase. Dr. Robotnik, you published an article this week. >> Talk about >> Yeah. So, um, >> hold on. Wait. Before you talk about it, let me cue something up real quick. Wait, where’d it go? >> This is why we need a producer. >> Ken, here. I I wasn’t supposed to press it, but say say what was the title of your article? >> Uh, how to write with AI and not make slot. Something like that. >> Wrong button, >> dude. Enough of these. These are stupid. >> They’re not stupid, dude. Everybody loves this >> Everybody likes this. >> Yeah. Like I I’ve always wanted to write more. I enjoyed writing. >> I don’t do it enough. And I think I mean this I had done I’d been trying to write with AI for a while and always turned out to to be I think we’ve now gotten to the point where the quality this is one of two things. The quality of AI has gotten to the point where it’s not it’s not or I suck more. I don’t know. My standards have lowered. Who knows? I don’t know what it is. >> One man’s slop is another pig’s fine cuisine. >> Maybe. I mean like I mean the whole thing about LLMs these days or AI is that it’s like it’s really good at making human mediocrity. So maybe I’m just mediocre. Uh I’m fine with that. But I wrote an article on how to write with AI and hopefully not make it like >> pause. Jesse, did you hear that just came out of this man’s mouth? He said, “Oh, maybe I’m just mediocre. I’m fine with that.” That’s what he said. >> That’s what he said. I’m fine with being me. He went off on us in the last episode about extraordinary people on some real John Legend On some John Legend And now he’s like remember that. >> I’m totally fine with being mediocre. >> All right. So you can like you can’t be good at everything. >> But you got to try at everything. >> Not trying right now to ship this pilot. >> Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you got to try at everything. And like you don’t realize how you’re good at something until you try it and fail at it for a long period of time. >> Like I used to be good at writing but I don’t write anymore. This got me writing more. That’s worth it in itself cuz like in my opinion I use writing to think and it’s a good spot to like flesh out key ideas and understanding and the process of writing helps me formalize thoughts. And now since I’ve been able to leverage AI, well, I’m writing more. Like the publishing is just because it might be useful for other people. I’m doing it for me. And I wrote the article just to be like, hey, this is what I’m doing. That’s making things that are at least passing my own litness test of quality. To me, this doesn’t suck, which is good enough, right? >> And if it’s used for other people, great. >> What color litmus test would it be? Green, blue, or yellow? >> Ah, I forgot what color litmus tests actually were. What a shitty chemist I am. >> This man, >> litmus paper is yellow, >> turns yellow, >> red when it’s uh when it’s acidic and blue when it’s basic. >> Thank you for that. See, I was never a good lab chemist. I was a computational chemist. >> So, not blue. >> Do that. >> Ain’t no >> We never did lab code chemistry. >> He ain’t no basic out here. So obviously green >> anyway. >> Well, I mean that’s pretty cool. I thought it was really cool. I thought I’d give you an opportunity to speak to as well because you know we don’t we don’t uh we don’t glaze ourselves enough. I don’t think >> No. No. We don’t need to glaze ourselves. >> Are you sure? There’s no self-glazing needed. >> I don’t think so. Just just do stuff and then it speaks for what you can do. >> Yeah. That’s what that’s the way the world used to do it. Let other people glaze you when it’s good. Okay. >> Yeah. All right. Well, let’s let’s switch back to crypto for a second, right? First of all, I’d like to say I was on a hot streak of never hearing about XRP for at least seven, eight months. And today, somebody got they got like, “Oh, this guy, Crypto Guy.” And they Googled me and they were like, “Oh, crypto guy.” And they were like, “Hey, so what do you think about XRP?” And they always whisper it like it’s some kind of secret that >> they do actually. You’re right. There’s a little bit of like what do you think about XRP? And I know that I’m not supposed to like this, but I do. >> I bought them already. So I hope you confirm my my feelings. >> I’ve been reading in the news that it is the newest best. And I’m like, “Oh my god, dude. What is happening out there?” But um it happened. And this isn’t even part of a segment. I just wanted to vent to my friends about the fact that people are still sucked in to the XRP cyclone and it is never going away ever. But uh that it >> No, I was thinking of where to go with the show, right? Because I didn’t want to talk about too many of the same things that we always talk about. I wanted to >> You literally set up the cadence of the thing to talk about the same thing over and over again. No, I didn’t. I set the cadence of the thing to extend the conversation. It’s just like one long fluid conversation of this is how the show is going to be, right? And so like you listen to one episode, it should go right into the next episode and we’re continuing on with the conversation. But conversations have tangents and I’d like to introduce a tangent, but you know, my mind is I don’t really like the options that I chose prior to really late at night and I’m an elder according to a lot of people that watch the show. But >> I mean, we’re in our 40s, so like we’re we’re old. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> for sure. >> Um, >> we’re either like we’re either like selling like, you know, was that Palm Beach investor Like we have a newsletter that’s going to show you how to make money doing the things we make money off of off of you trying to make money because we told you to. That’s like the like, you know, scam investor Bye, Jesse. or uh like what we talk about which is like we’ve been around for a long time and everything’s garbage except for a few things. Let’s talk about the few things >> we kind of made money so we did a pretty good job. We’re still around. The the waves of crypto don’t bother us anymore because we’ve weathered them. >> Yeah. For those of you new to crypto though, um 99% of this is noise. Unfortunately, there’s not a whole lot of signal. Um, you’re not going to get signal from, you know, uh, very popular media like CNBC or or sorry, MSNBC or Fox News Business. You’re not going to get signal from 99% of Twitter. You’re not going to get signal. And I suppose I should define signal. What I mean by signal is actual pertinent information that helps you understand either a your investment of money or b your investment of time. Right? You’re not going to get signal from 99% of what’s out there. And unfortunately the only place where you are going to get signal is the Bitcoin podcast uh discord. >> We should have people ask question like I want to know I I wish we had like a a repository of questions that people wanted to know about that I just sit here and answer. >> Yeah, that’d be dope. And they could do that by joining Discord asking questions like talking to the next we have a bot that will pay you in crypto to ask us questions that we ask. >> We actually do have a bot. Yeah, we have a bot that’ll pay you in crypto. It’s our crypto. It’s not worth anything. But like, >> yeah. >> Oh, we got to go through that. I should I’m gonna do that tomorrow. >> Yep. Oh, there’s Jesse. >> Yeah, he’s back. >> Hey, man. Welcome back. >> Car outage. What’s up? >> Internet went down. He’s testing the peerto-peer client. >> He’s stress testing things at his house. >> Yeah. So Jesse, what we missed is we just told everyone that they could be like regular crypto people and listen to all the garbage on Twitter and MSNBC or they can get somewhat of a signal by joining the Discord. And then I told them, hey, you can get paid by asking us questions that we answer on the show and you’ll get paid in TBPcoin and it’s not worth much. We can’t rug you. That’s not something we can >> It’s not worth anything. Hasn’t been deployed. >> So nothing. >> Yeah. So you’re not gonna get anything. I I actually said to him, “I’ll do that tomorrow.” Jesse, >> I have time. >> Okay. >> What are you eating, bro? That looks delicious, man. >> Here’s like the best things ever, >> dude. Yes, >> those are they they they did they discontinue the nerd rope >> and then just do the cluster. >> I don’t know, but these gummy clusters are so good. >> The nerd rope was just a long strand of all of that >> They’re so good. >> Yeah, I got those for Halloween. I stole them out of the kids bags or whatever. >> Thief. Um, so anyways, um, getting getting back to to let’s just talk specifically about Bitcoin. Something we don’t do very often with a show called the Bitcoin podcast. We’ve evolved, but um, Bitcoin is back in the news again because this time of year, typically every year, Bitcoin is doing what it does in the price, right? It’s it’s making maneuvers. That’s why I got approached about XRP earlier, right? And it’s at a point where um there’s so much more Bitcoin owned by institutions than individuals. Where do we go? If we look at the original like intent of Bitcoin was not that, right? It was not for Bitcoin to be just owned by, you know, >> part of the just standard financial system. >> Well, I think that was part of it. It wanted to be the currency system of the world. >> It wanted to be the backbone. But I it was always this counterculture hedge to the traditional financial wall street in Right. >> It was punk rocket, bro. >> And it was and now it’s Wall Street. >> Yeah, that’s true. And so like for a while having Bitcoin was a nice hedge against the traditional market and that is not the case anymore because the traditional market invested so much in Bitcoin >> and their influence was so much larger than the traditional than the previous market cap. Like the explosion of the market cap coming from them effectively made it them. And so it’s no longer it’s no longer hedged. It’s no longer like uh decoupled from the traditional market because it’s so much of a part of the traditional market. >> Like if you like I was reading uh Black Rockck’s um 2026 investment kind of thesis going over what happened over all over last year and they like a portion of the like one or two pages of the entire thing and it’s only like 18 pages long is dedicated to stable coins. as like being a bridge from traditional to modern markets and something that’s worth looking into. And that’s why you’re seeing so much traditional industry or traditional finance salivate over stable coins but don’t know anything about them or like they’re trying to make them. Um, and so like we’re like quote unquote adoptions here. It’s just not what we really pictured back in 2015 when we talked about it. >> Nope. >> Not at all. It’s it’s it’s But that’s the thing is that does it get anywhere close to that? Like let’s run it back, right? Let’s imagine we’re back in the 30s. See, and gold is still the reserve currency. See? And like but people are passing around like paper dollars, right? Just the it’s a representative of the gold that’s in the bank. Do you think Bitcoin ever gets to a point where all of the financial activity is representatives of the Bitcoin on the blockchain owned by the people? And by the people, we mean large corporations and banks. Sorry, it’s comical a little bit, but sorry, I didn’t mean to laugh. That was a serious question. Do we think that there will be so much financial activity that that financial activity is just a representative of the Bitcoin? >> No. on the blockchain. That’s not going to happen ever. >> No. >> So, it’ll never be paper currency. >> I have I have full confidence that that will never happen. >> What if they start issuing paper that’s representative of Bitcoin? >> Why would they choose Bitcoin? >> Run it back. >> Why would they choose Bitcoin? >> Because they got a lot of it and they want to make a lot of money. >> Can’t control it. >> But what if they chose >> There’s too many other options that are more controllable by a jurisdiction that wants to control things. And if you’re a government, you’re going to choose control >> control >> because like if you’re like dictating how taxes are made, there are better technologies to do that with. >> Very true. >> And you can’t control the like again right and right now Bitcoin is facing some interesting issues that it doesn’t know how to fix yet. like >> go on >> uh whether or not the inflation amount of new bitcoin for every block is enough to sustain the security and mine and hash rate of the network. Uh so like if transactions can’t do it then miners aren’t going to be there and if miners drop off commensurate to the value of whatever Bitcoin is and the amount of transactions that are pumping through because there’s not enough new Bitcoin being minted because of the the geometric rate in which it decreases over time till we there’s only there’s less than 1 million Bitcoin to be mined forever left we already got over 20 million I think >> if the price doesn’t go high enough the security so security goes low, the trash rate goes low, and that’s not necessarily decentralized. And so like there’s too much risk in something like that >> for government to choose when you have options like CBDC’s. >> There have to be actuaries. There have to be actual people in the crypto and the Bitcoin community calculating, hey, what is the price of Bitcoin that’s needed to avoid that? What are the game theoretical? >> I imagine that’s happening somewhere. >> Yeah. What? >> I don’t know how good those people are. >> It’s hard to say. Like I don’t know. I since I left kind of that world back in what 200 17 18. >> The world of what? Actuary. >> Uh working with the government. >> Oh, okay. Well, I’m not talking about that. I’m just talking about like there’s some nerdy dude somewhere. No one. No. Like we’re just talking about nerds because of the candy, so we’re just going to keep it there. There’s a nerdy dude somewhere calculating like the game theoretical probabilities that Bitcoin’s price will inflate to a point that it can still secure the network and what that price needs to be as >> it’s not a hard calculation. >> Well, okay. Do it right now. Put it on the screen. Like you got to it’s going to take that gonna be like three seconds, but like it it could be less it could be done in less than less than an hour. >> What can we use AI to do? It’s solving those hard ass math problems. Now >> ask the question. Let’s see. >> Oh, Claude, this dude, use a good prompt. I’m too tired to write a good prompt right now. >> I’ll write it out. I’m going right now. >> Okay, what do you got going? >> Oh, throw it up there. >> Throw throw it up on the scrizzine. >> Oh, he’s got too many screens. I don’t know if he’s gonna be able to do this. >> Yeah, I know. >> Hey, Jesse, man. You want to come kick it with me? You want to come to the crib for a weekend? You and uh your boo >> here, I’ll do mine. I I have to work. I have to ship. He got time for this Oh. Oh, you’re on like go mode. >> Yeah, he’s on super go mode. >> I’m on go or die. >> He got time for you, bro. All right. What’s the What’s the prompt here? We got uh explanatory. >> So, what I have is what does what does the Bitcoin reward need to be at in dollar terms >> so that it meets the baseline of break even profit for Bitcoin mining stay at current difficulty threshold? So like I’m implying like the difficulty threshold isn’t going to be adjusted downwards. So stay at current hash rate. >> Clip that. >> What is the reward going? Dude, I’m liking this. >> Need to be in order to sustain the security. >> Oh, like there’s too many factors like that are moving. You can find a right like a threshold like like a certain threshold >> does conversation not found. I don’t know what that means. >> New conversation. >> Sorry, I didn’t mean to laugh. But >> before I dive into some advanced research on this, let me ask some couple clarifying questions. You want to give your research or do you want to like just answer off the bat? >> Do research means just going to search the web? do research so we can bring that up in the next episode. >> Do do a quick one so we can get an answer. >> What security threshold are you interested in? You thinking about the cost to mount a 51% attack? >> Just answer the questions. >> So I think you asked a shitty question. You you frame you framed it. >> Think research research and opus will always ask follow-up questions for >> So here we go. Just depends, right? So let’s see hash price cost at current hash rate which is 24. Required BTC price is 55.4,000 per bitcoin. Um implied dollar per block uh is the 3.125 bitcoin subsidy plus 0.0185 0185 uh in Bitcoin and fees is 174,000 per block. Um so there’s like diff it’s it’s it’s doing different minor assumptions in terms of setup. So there’s three setups. There’s efficient and cheap power, there’s typical modern fleet, then there’s less efficient and pricier power. And so the Bitcoin price goes from 55.4,000 to 116.3 is the range. say that to last thing one more time. >> Does it have any any indication on like the difference like what does that translate to um number of transactions per block or like or like the average transaction fee? >> So the the average transaction fee needs to be 0185 Bitcoin. But like that the problem is is it’s implying uh block rewards are fixed at 3.125. So you like I need to re the next prompt needs to be. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> So like for instance, >> why don’t we build a calculator? There used to be a calculator for these kinds of things. >> It’s it’s not that simple. There’s too many factors. It’s a like this is a this is a multi-dimensional problem that >> there’s too many dimensions. >> Yeah, it’s a it’s a function of a bunch of different parameters. >> Assuming Bitcoin rewards keep diminishing. at the typical rate. Uh, can the system like >> somebody’s watching us on Twitch >> range of miners for >> Hello Twitch viewer. How you doing, man? >> Years. >> We’ve had a number of people on Instagram. >> We have nobody right now. Dylan joined and said hi. >> Oh, no. Well, it’s probably because we’re doing rather boring right now, but it’s going to be good. We’re gonna It’s going to be nice. You guys just got to stay for the bang. I think that actually answers your question, Corey, because if you look at the previous prompt, it’s 174,000 per block to 365. And that’s including the Bitcoin rewards. So, just imagine that the rewards are going down. You still need to hold at those prices. So, that means that >> the Bitcoin rewards goes down. You have to make it up in fees >> and that and you can make it up more volume more transactions or more more right like cost per >> higher price per single transaction. Yeah, >> you can do higher price per single transaction by nesting a bunch of transactions into one namely like L2 type things. >> But I don’t think you guys are on the right track though. >> What do you mean on the right track? >> This is what I’m getting. >> This is the right track. This is the only track. What do you think? >> This is what I’m getting at. If you watch an NFL football game, right, they have done the actuary sciences that they give probability of who’s going to win the game at every second of the game, right? Given all of the the multi-dimensional >> Why don’t you just ask your question? What’s what’s the clarifying question? >> Don’t interrupt. Don’t be rude. Don’t >> You’re just not making the right analogies again. >> Right. And so I wonder if there’s an actual actuarial scientist out there that is calculating the probability of like Bitcoin winning like it wants to do, right? Like given all of the things, right? Like that’s a lot of possibilities, right? But that’s what actuaries >> be a waste of it’d be a waste of talent. Someone someone capable of doing that and be a waste of their talent because the answer is no. >> You don’t know that. That’s we’re asking for the math. It’s >> can’t do the math. Neither one of you. >> It’s asinine to think that Bitcoin would be the thing that takes over. >> Okay. But a lot of people said a lot about a lot of things to be the backdrop currency for the globe is dumb. >> Okay, maybe who cares? Dumb people do really important >> And someone who’s capable of that type of calculation you’re talking about wouldn’t spend their time on such a thing. >> You don’t? Because the answer is clearly no. >> You speak so matterof factly of things. >> Yeah. Because guess who’s good at this stuff. >> You’re not an actuary. You’re not good at actuary. >> Actuary science is simple compared to what I have done. >> Okay. But you don’t do it. You don’t practice it. So you don’t know it. You can’t just say that you’ve done it. >> Yes, I do because I’ve known actuaries and I’ve I know what they can do. I know what they do. It’s not that hard. >> I don’t agree with you. I don’t I don’t think I don’t think you could do what they do. I don’t care what you think. Like >> I don’t care easy. Like you say it’s >> Yes, it is. D >> for me is easy that you think is hard. >> I don’t think so. I don’t think >> you know the crypto zombies thing that you said was like deadly challenging. It was a joke. >> I don’t think you did it. Show me your shirts. Show me the receipts. >> You mean audits? No, show me the receipts that you did. >> Audited Cryptozombies like doing it was a joke. >> Where’s the point? Is this the camera? Am I looking in the camera? >> So 2.3 years at >> is this the office camera that I’m looking at? >> Uh at the current price of Bitcoin and at the current difficulty is 2.3 years. So the difficulty has to adjust upwards or if it stays the same then obviously the price of bitcoin has like >> to compensate the the having happening >> it’s not a probability thing d like you’re getting >> everything’s a probability thing or act science wouldn’t be a thing >> no you don’t even you don’t even basic analysis I understand what I’m saying this there’s there’s there is a a it’s it’s like an n-dimensional problem where there is multiple factors that you can kind of turn the knob of that changes how >> kind of like how actuaries calculate risk, right? Like >> I’m just saying like it’s >> I’m making some simple assumptions which makes it so I don’t have to do a statistical analysis. Does that make sense? >> But that’s not what I’m I’m asking. Literally, >> why do you want a probability? Why? Like are you just curious that there’s someone out there doing it? >> Yes, just because it’s fun. >> I hope not. >> I’ll tell you what you want to know, D. Bitcoin is not a good investment. >> Writing and sighting report. >> You You guys sometimes talk a lot like you know but you don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t. >> I I I do you know what do you know what uh basian analysis is? uh economics. >> No, >> no. What is it then? >> Basin analysis is the ability to it’s a type of statistics that allows you to assign probabilities to certain outcomes based on what you know about the outcomes. Uh what’s nice about basis analysis is that in the event you have new information, you get to update those probabilities. It’s called updating your priors. That is one of the hallmarks of where big data came from and data science became a a large field in the industry because it gave the ability for data scientists to come in and give executives hard numbers of like this thing or this thing or this thing. Here’s the numbers. They said okay cool >> business is a part of economics. Basian analysis is a part is a discipline. It’s a start. It’s a part >> of economics. Economists use it all the time. >> Basian economist is a thing people say. the the underlying the underlying framework can be applied to economics. Yes. But it is more general than that. >> It is a fundamental type of statistics. >> Anyway, >> what you’re asking for is basically that of like if you were to try and do the basic analysis of Bitcoin being the winner, whatever that means, what’s the probability of that based on everything we know? Yeah. What are the odds? >> The answer is dumb. Like, it’s not even worth calculating. >> I mean, >> and anyone who’s good at that type of thing would say the answer is no. I don’t need to do the calculation. >> Further away the calculation is from 50/50 sometimes will make it more interesting. Like if something can happen close to 100% of the time, it’s interesting. if something could happen very very far from like very very close to zero% it’s like whoa that’s crazy that never happens. I would argue that those are two right if you’re doing like more game mechanics of like what are the options of these things given the reward of these things and you would look for something that’s kind of a reasonable bet with a high high multiplier. >> Yeah. Like that to me is arguably more interesting. or would be interesting. But anyways, we’ve we’ve gotten we don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore because that’s how conversations go. I almost wish we had I almost wish I had a stiff drink of bourbon while I was having this conversation. It would have made it that much better. When I’m not tired like a zombie, I will rearticulate what I’m what I was asking. And I do I am interested in how that research turns out from Claude. I thought it was going to be better. It says it’s been writing and setting a report for a while. >> Oh, dude. Research takes up >> I can publish the results and then we’ll just put in the description. >> Research up to takes of like 20 minutes, man. >> Some of them are short. >> Um, well, that was a hard question we asked. Um, I got nothing, guys. It’s kind of late for us quite honestly. >> It’s 50 minutes. Wrap it up. >> We’re going to wrap it. We are going to go back to the question. There’s a question in the description actually and we asked it earlier. If you’re watching right now or if you’re watching at a different time later, you know, uh, do builders have responsibility beyond tooling. Yes or no. Interpret how you want. Go to town. And when builders, we’re talking about developers, quite obviously, this is a crypto show. We wouldn’t be talking about like Bob the Builder, the construction guy. Or would we do we expand it? >> Oh, finished. >> It knows YouTube well. It starts with your Bitcoin security budget, bro. >> The $300 billion question. >> Oh, that’s juicy. We just got the thing that we were looking forward to talk to right at the end of the show. Looks like you guys are going to have to tune in to the next one. Oh, also special two episodes this week. We got one interview. Fubalubaloo. And then that’s the guy’s name. His name is Fub Fubalubu. Oh, no. He actually says like Fubalubaloo. And then you were like, “No, I’m never going to be able to say that.” So, you can go check out that interview. Uh, the guy makes bots. I guess it’s Python based or something. I think is it Python based? Python based bots. >> Uh, you basically talk to your computer and it will make you crypto. I don’t know. That was kind of the gist of it. >> You got it. >> Uh, yeah. I mean, I didn’t I couldn’t listen to all of it. I But I thought that’s what he was trying to get at was making bots for aping into things. But, um, nevertheless, you can go check that out. Uh, you can also go to the website, the bitcoinpodcast.com. Corey is like adding stuff to it. You can join the Discord by going to the link there, or you can do that. >> There it is. >> You can scan that QR code right there. >> That QR code is going to take you to the Discord. There’s all kinds of cool people in there like Tim and >> us and Joe. >> Us and Joe and Robo God. >> Mashi. >> Yaggi’s in there as well. Uh Wayne, not Wayne. Yes, the crypto’s in there. You You need to not >> He’s He said his name before. I mean