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Episode Description
In this episode, we pick up where the last conversation left off and confront one of crypto’s most uncomfortable realities: privacy doesn’t fail because the tech is bad, it fails because the cost of understanding it is too high for most people.
We break down why crypto literacy naturally centralizes, why exit rights only matter if people actually use them, and why privacy UX may never be compatible with mass adoption. Along the way, we challenge the assumption that crypto should be for everyone, and ask what systems should optimize for once that myth is gone.
This isn’t an episode about price, hype, or adoption charts.
It’s about filters, tradeoffs, and what “winning” actually looks like when humans are the bottleneck.
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He got me like I I told him next. It’s a Bitcoin. The only one that’s making your money you coin market. So hold on. Did Did one of you guys put the stream key for Instagram? >> I did not. >> I did. I put it in there. >> Oh, okay. Oh, you didn’t click all the places. >> I did. >> Instagram. >> Thought there’s like >> Instagram was listed on there twice for some reason. I don’t know why. Oh, >> okay. >> And the fourth place is Twitter. And we can’t stream there because we’re not giving in to Elon’s demands. We did not negotiate with >> can’t say the T word. We got to bleep that out or we’ll get >> really >> I think so. I hear like in more clips people are bleeping out bad words for reason. >> What do you say instead? >> Uh bearer wrist. Like they don’t say P O R N. They say corn. So, >> I see that on like Instagram posts or whatever when they just like slash through letters because they don’t want the the visual AIs to flag them. >> Yep. Huh. Oh We didn’t even start the show. >> Hey guys, um you know, welcome to the Bitcoin podcast, the original Bitcoin podcast. I’m the host talks first. >> I am second host, Dr. Corey Petty, coming at you live. >> I’m the third host, Jesse. >> And uh this is the Bitcoin podcast. This is the show where we talk about deep things >> in crypto. >> Sometimes, most of the time it’s shallow. Sometimes it’s shallow. Sometimes we play in the kiddie pool. No. Shallow pool. Shallow end, right? And then sometimes we >> shall end kitty pool. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Grown men never play in kitty pools. Shallow end of the pool. >> Yeah. Well, they don’t play. They just want to sit there and watch with that sad look on their face like, “How did I get here?” No. No kidding. I’m kidding. everybody. Uh well, anyways, before we get into like some crypto stuff, like how you guys been doing, man. It’s the new year. We’re in 2026 now. Last time we recorded, we were in 2025. >> It’s too early to tell. I don’t know how I’m doing. >> Okay. Yeah. All right. >> I can tell you >> six days in, I’m not six feet under. So, I’d say that’s good for the most part. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know, loving life. Um I didn’t make any resolutions this year. I usually do make resolutions, but this year I just forgot. So, I guess that’s a sign of my life. >> My resolution for 2026 is to make resolutions for 2027. >> Ah, that that one I could definitely do well with. Very easy to do well with that one. >> I don’t do resolutions. >> Yeah, I don’t do those either. I fail. >> How you doing, man? >> Beard’s looking full. >> Looking nice. >> Should be shape up to be a good year. I’m going have my house back to myself the end of this year. That’ be nice. almost. >> Oh, you got the in-laws. >> Yeah. Doing a compound. So, like right now, everyone’s living with me. So, like end of this year, every all the houses should be built. Everyone’s out. Now, it’s just me and the kids and my wife. >> Nice. Nice. But, I mean, they’ll still be around. >> Yeah, they’re on the property. Just not in my house >> within spitting distance. >> No, that’s too close. As your lord. So, when you walk into their houses, do you say lord entering? >> No. Duke Duke of Duke Petty has entered the premises. >> Yeah. Act like I leave my house. I’m gonna leave my house. >> Yeah, but their houses are going to be on your property. >> Like if their houses are on your property, then you have to say like the Duke has entered the building. >> They got their own properties. We sold it to them. We just carved out a section and sold it to him. It’s theirs. >> Okay. How do my No, I’m kidding. Anyways, uh we actually got to talk about his day or his time. >> I’ve been working on the Archavist desktop app and it has been going uh slow slower than I had hoped. Uh that’s what I’ve been working on. >> Okay. Yeah. All right. Um good stuff. I myself pretty good week. I’ve been off from work for quite a while, but I start back up next week. Um, and just have some good holidays, man. That’s it. I’m ready to get back into full swinging thing. So, let’s talk about why the price is moving. No, I’m kidding. Sorry. No, it is, but notifications that the price is moving. You should join the Discord and get into the price talk channel because it’s just a series of gifts that are >> wow >> related to what the price is doing. >> Um, and they’re pretty funny. Most of them are sell, but you know, >> join the Discord. Scan that and when you you’ll know when the price of crypto is going up because you’ll see neat gifts. >> No, it’s over there. >> That’s not >> Oh, you don’t mirror your screen. Okay. Anyways, there’s a there’s a QR code up there. Scan it, join the Discord, join the conversation. But today, what we’re talking about is something we talked about at Nausea, but we’re going to keep talking about it because it’s what we do. And that is if literacy always centralizes, crypto literacy to be specific, not actual people being able to read, >> what should we actually opt optimize for? What does it mean? Okay, so if I could explain this tangibly, what it means to me is when I show a newbie a TX ID and they click on that link and they go and they look on the scanner for what that transaction did, they usually you could see their brain start leaking out of their ear, right? So that would be crypto illiteracy. But crypto literacy would be able to go through a transaction line by line and explain exactly what they’re looking at, what went where, how did it go there, what does that data mean, what does that message mean, right? Like people can’t even what’s the word I’m looking for? Dissect and do proper forensics on their own transactions. Whereas if you were you to take banking literacy, people can always look at their statement and they know that’s a very easy thing to dissect. I had debits here. I had credits there from these accounts. Dun skis. But if you’re looking at a blockchain, there’s a whole lot more going on. Big daddy. There’s like inputs, outputs, data. Now there’s other things. There’s other things. Like it just keeps expanding, right? So crypto literacy is what I’m talking about there. If you show somebody a screenshot of a TX ID, will they know what’s going on? >> I don’t know. I don’t I don’t like that definition. I see what you mean. You want people to be able to get all of the ins and outs of what happens when you send a transaction and like what these things mean. But that’s too much I think for the average person. Um for me it’s closer to like what does it provide that other things don’t like banking right or centralized banking. Literacy is understanding the differentiation that blockchain is or a decentralized blockchain is compared to a centralized bank and like what a smart contract is offering in some type of you know very generic sense. What a decentralized application is versus a centralized application is like that’s literacy to me not some of the more esoteric mundane details of any given blockchain that enables these things. Yeah, but if we’re talking literacy, we’re talking like >> are you literate, right? Like >> because I’m not literate. I’m not that literate. >> I’m more literate than most people. But like I don’t know some of the intricacies of like Salana and that has some changes in it with respect to a given transaction and how a transaction is considered final that I don’t understand. But like any EVM based thing, yeah, I’m quite literate. Bitcoin, yeah, I’m very literate. >> No, no. Like I’m talking to D. Oh, >> am I You’re talking to me. Am I literate? Um like Corey said, when it comes to Bitcoin, I feel very illiterate. Like extremely literate enough to right now I could walk into a bank and say like, “Hey, give me a job, scan in the Bitcoin blockchain, pay me a lot, and I’ll help you out with that.” And they’ll be like, “Really?” And I’ll be like, “Yeah, yeah, I can read that.” Right. But when it comes to Ethereum, >> yeah, I’m pretty sure like I know like if it’s a one, it’s like legacy. If it’s a little B, it’s SegWit. Like there’s other ones like too. I kind of know a lot. >> I feel like so like I I skimmed a build a Bitcoin uh implementation article and I was going through it and there’s a lot in there that I don’t know. So when did you leapfrog me? >> What did you say? Hold. I was responding to people in there. >> Like when did you leaprog me in your understanding of Bitcoin like core code? Well, no, >> I’m not talking about transaction IDs on Bitcoin. I’m talking about like more than like even Ethereum. Ethereum, like for instance, when you’re using >> um what’s that? A keystone hardware wallet, right? >> Being able to decode a a smart contract transaction, like that’s something I can’t do. >> Well, I would not say I’m in decoding smart code transactions, but you we’re talking about literacy here. There’s literacy which like is like now brown cow the man ran >> the windy day hurt my feelings and then there’s like reading at a PhD level like there’s like levels to that but the the literacy like that’s the one I’m talking about now brown cow yet like yeah >> well then I think appropriate for literacy is that you submit a like understanding a few key concepts of blockchains most of the time it’s you submit a transaction you have to wait for the network to process it. >> You usually pay the network via a transaction fee that’s extra from what you’d like to send >> and that transaction fee is going to be >> subject to what that transaction does and the congestion of the network. Like that’s it >> basically. >> But that’s not a lot. That’s like anybody from >> that’s brown for like literacy. >> So like what could you do D? That’s more than that. Um, I probably could learn more about, you know, smart contract, get get a little bit more literate there. And I say probably, I said I probably I should I need to considering the fact that that’s going to be everything. The weird part is like like the the the method like the way I see it, the way that’s done today will not be the way that it will be done when I think we have quote unquote like mass adoption >> because it’s public and what you expose to the network is a bunch of things you wouldn’t want to expose to the network if you’re doing some type of private business transaction. And we only do that because we back in the day when we invented these things, we didn’t have zero knowledge tech or applicable zero knowledge technology. >> Yeah. >> And so you had to do it in order to do the verification process and ensure that people weren’t cheating. And we built all of this off of a transparent ledger. But you don’t that’s not going to that’s not going to be the thing we eventually use because you have to have privacy. >> Yeah. >> A business doesn’t want to expose business secrets. They need privacy. So then that that contradicts DE’s point then, which is the fact that like he understands Bitcoin and Ethereum well enough to be hired by a bank to do blockchain forensics, which I don’t think he could do. But when you’re talking about having an alternative blockchain that is private, that is even more complicated than Bitcoin or Ethereum in terms of the implementation. So like what? No, >> it’s not I could do it. I have done it. >> It depends on what level of things you’re talking about. >> Yeah, you were talking about different you were he wasn’t doing like chain analysis level like right >> that’s what I’m that’s what I’m talking about >> he was doing >> like banks do a lot with crypto in crypto now if you talk on this stuff like >> and there’s a there’s a lot of different levels to this type of stuff he’s perfectly capable of a lot of those levels just when you get to the lower levels of like entity analysis and doing real forensics on blockchains it becomes a nightmare especially Now they’re much more complicated. >> Is that what banks do though? Like what? Like if >> Well, they don’t do it. They hire chain analysis and elliptic. >> Yeah, they hire experts. >> Coinbase does it in house. They do all that stuff in house. >> Yeah. If you want to work at Coinbase, man, you got to you got to you got to be on your dude. >> I remember meeting the CSO, the chief of security a long time ago when I was in security. Uh, Trill Bits had this um conference in New York and I went there and he gave a talk and we talked for a long time on what what security looked like at Coinbase and I was like >> you’ve got a lot I do >> Jesus >> interesting. What’s interesting is like we did not remove trust from any systems at all but we are redefining and reformatting and refactoring what trust means in the new world. And that that is the definite right like you have to trust people like there is no life without trust. >> So >> right there’s some people right now living a life without trust in a very dark and gloomy room with green lights for some reason listening to probably some sort of techno music and like I just don’t think that that’s like >> was it Jesse that made this like graphic on like >> Yeah, he made it last week >> versus private. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like that that nails it, right? Anything that is not secret, meaning that it’s private or public, means you have to trust, right? The moment you include someone else is the moment you’re trusting something to ensure that something or someone >> to ensure that that that private thing doesn’t get leaked outside of the people you expect it to be to go to. Mhm. >> And so the the the key point of all of blockchain was to remove trust from humans and put it into the network. >> So you’re trusting the network to manage things appropriately and not what previously got relegated to humans as like a central point of authority. >> That was the whole point and it’s still the whole point. >> Yeah. When I was thinking of like like somebody who works for banks, I was thinking of like um uh Johnny uh like you know did the those trio of guys that we interviewed a while back, Johnny, Zack, and >> Yeah. >> Johnny Ray. Yeah. And like his experience working at uh I think he worked at uh NFCU uh doing blockchain integration stuff and like that’s like you’re a programmer. You’re you have to be a Like there are I don’t think there are any jobs or maybe I’m Maybe I’m really wrong, but like there are no jobs. >> A lot of jobs that are just like not programmers. I know a lot of people >> No, no. When when you’re doing when you’re doing blockchain integration, like for instance, if you’re integrating um what’s the what’s the privy like privy, right? ZKP, privy, whatever, all that stuff. >> Yeah. You need to be a programmer. >> Yeah. Like there’s no way around >> like at least like a code monkey, >> right? Exactly. >> Code monkey. Yeah. So like like that’s why I’m saying like D like it’s not sufficient to just look at a balance transfer like that’s not it or using basic oent tools like it goes way harder than that modern modern >> I know everything that I do in my life goes way harder but I I can’t go that hard in the paint. Like I said, I have only a there’s a finite balance of to give every day and I have to be very strategic in how I how I debit those >> because if I don’t, you know what I mean? If I don’t get if I don’t get seven hours of sleep, then I’m starting the next day with a smaller a lotment of to give. So, I got to be very strategic. >> Now, I can load up I can load up my right? And that is, you know, if I if I load if I load up my and I’m getting good sleep, exercise, diet, all that good stuff, taking care of the kids, kiss my wife, get more right? But like, you know, there’s only so many But >> I mean, this is like an argument I’ve had. Anyway, >> that could be the name of a book that I write. There’s only so many >> That that’s that’s I guess my point. It’s like the people that I see doing some like pretty hardcore it’s like they don’t have any obligations. They just know life >> Yeah. >> That’s it’s hard. >> Infinite balance. >> Life is hard. I >> I think now if I if we’re sticking with philos philosophical life stuff, I think if I were in my 20s, I would have done more to have given myself a higher base of to give in a day. Does that make sense? Like just bang like Cory banged out his PhD in his 20s, right? And now he has a higher base level of allocatable because >> in specific areas. >> Yes. In specific areas, but also in general. >> Also in general, like if you walk into a place and you’re like, “Hey, my name’s Cory Petty. I want to work here.” And they look at your resume, they’re like, “Oh PhD.” They’re like, “Holy this guy’s lots of fucks.” Right? But if they look at my resume, they’re like, “Ah, this guy has a measurably lower amount of I don’t know if I want to hire the number of that he has.” I almost think that like in traditional companies like they don’t give a about like no sorry they do give a more about the credentials >> but in real work like >> it just matters that you can do it >> experience >> it matters that you can allocate the >> correct yeah >> taking that analogy way too far >> no not there there could be a whole book about it baby to give uh so anyways back to topic at hand crypto literacy um if we >> what we’re saying is that >> okay so it it so what I mean by that is um the same thing that I’ve always kind of meant though like I’m as literate when it comes to my the water that comes in and out of my home as a there’s a water man out there and there’s a big ass pipe connect there’s a there’s a big ass pipe running somewhere out there that goes to a bunch of big ass pipes and then there’s a smaller ass pipe run into my house and that’s what gives me my water. And then there’s a small ass pipe running back that takes the waste out. That’s it. That’s that’s all I need to know about how the utilities and the water get to my crib. That’s it. >> There’s not specialization that you don’t anymore. Yeah. Like all those big ass pipes down. I’m going to get to some sort of filtration system. I’m going to get even further down to like the river, right? Like or or maybe a water >> water table. >> Water table. Like I know that there’s specialization that goes there. It’s probably a chemist chemist somewhere in there that’s like taking you know like taking chemical samples at different stages of the water at different heights of how below or how high it is. >> Lot of civil engineers >> a lot of civies you know like >> there’s a lot going on out there and I’m just like nah like that. So like that level of literacy >> is going to happen in crypto, right? And we have to define a system so that everybody can still use the water. >> Yeah. >> Right. And that’s where I think that like that’s where I think crypto is having trouble finding its footing and the professionals are stepping in and they’re like, “Well, we’re going to define the system for you because you you guys obviously want a little bit of a chaotic situation and we can’t just everybody pouring motor oil down their sinks.” Hm. So, if you’re building permissionless, credibly neutral infrastructure, you can’t keep people from pouring motor oil down the sink. >> That’s true. You But you what you can do hopefully is price them out of it. Make it such that they’re not they’re not incentivized to do it. Right. Bitcoin works the way it works is because the incentives are so overwhelmingly towards playing by the rules that people do it. >> Mhm. >> And so spamming the network costs too much money. People don’t spam the network. I mean ordinals >> I like that argue. >> Feel free to pour motor oil down your sink, but when we get your ass to pay for it like like the process of pouring the motor oil down the sink is costly. >> Yeah. >> So you aren not going to do it. That’s the whole point. This is this is something you brought to my attention a long time ago because like for those that don’t know who are watching the show, me and D went to college together. I spent a lot of time in high performance computing and using supercomputers and there’s this and I and me and D took a class where it was like super supercomputing. We had to learn how to write programs that run on supercomputers for various things. And as a part of that class, you got a lotment on one of the supercomputers at the university. You went to Texas Tech. And remember this, >> that’s a that’s a that’s a computing paradigm that a lot of people don’t get in the proliferation of the devices that we have. We all have laptops and mobile devices and phones and these types of things that are just have a lot of computing power within them, but like no one has ever really had to rent time on a computer and then worry about the computation they do with that time. And so when you think about a blockchain, it’s much more close to using a supercomputer and that you’re you have a limited amount of time and it costs money to run code on that computer. And so that’s not something people are used to. And it’s a it’s a paradigm shift for using this. Like there are instances where you want to run you want to use a computer like that for a given reason. It costs money for a reason because it’s special. It’s not general compute like on your phone. And so the question is like so what what’s special about it? For supercomputers, it’s incredibly high connectivity and bandwidth so that you can spread a single problem across a very large number of processors and those processors can talk to each other really, really, really, really fast. So you can solve really, really, really big problems you can’t solve on your local desktop. But you can’t do that on a blockchain. A blockchain is different and that it’s resilient. It’s trustless. It’s decentralized. Well, the whole point >> work in an adversarial context versus a fault tolerant system. it is resilient and is the main thing. And so like it can’t be taken out from underneath you. >> It’s accessible to everyone. >> And so you when you have that that combination of being incredibly accessible and incredibly resilient, so it can’t be taken from you. That’s valuable, right? That’s why it costs money to use. But like I said, it costs money to use. And so you’re not going to end up spamming it. You’re not you’re not going to put motor oil down your sink because it’ll cost you too much. it’d be a waste of time and money. >> Some clever people though like don’t they they they they see the adversarial context and they like for instance uh what’s that one guy who was attacking Monero? >> I forgot his name. >> His name was Bob. >> It was uh it was um >> sorry >> it was one of the miners. Forget one. Yeah, >> I forget. >> So like that’s an example of like exploiting uh right a blockchain, right? And >> there there there are a few I guess I guess all all this to say like even even like uh every every protocol has its weakness like for in the con in the context of like uh storage systems or compute systems like anything that you’re trying to have like an Uber-like dynamic for a thing that’s a commodity. You don’t want to have fluctuating value of a native token that you’re using to pay for the service because it’s almost like I think I’ve talked about this before like you you don’t want a variable cost of using your toaster to toast bread. So such that if you put a slice of bread in your toaster, uh it could randomly cost a million dollars once it pops out and it’s ready to eat. That’s awful, right? Terrible idea. Uh and there are some people who who are predatory in our ecosystem who >> can exploit the ways in which the system had not >> been built to handle that adversarial attack that you know that they run. Yeah. >> So like Yeah. Anyway, going back to what the whole topic of this is if literacy always centralizes or so like when we were asking like what is what does it mean to be crypto literate and is it inevitable for it to centralize? Like 100% like nobody’s going to take the time and no life this It’s not like normal people who do this. Just like in anything like if you’re a plumber you specialize in that. If if you’re anything that can make anything worthwhile that isn’t just like brain dead factory work, you you probably have a specialty and you have a lot of domain specific experience that comes with that. >> Yeah. Now that I think about it, we can’t have the answer to this because it’s the same thing like humans human, right? Like there will be lanes of literacy in which you go down, right? Like for example, like there’s be people that use the highways. They just use the highways. And then there’s the people that go to the International Highway Conference and award ceremony every year and they can’t wait to get into that big ass room and talk about concrete with all their concrete love and friends, right? And they just like, oh, like, have you seen the new U design on the uh high scale uh high velocity or sorry, high volume uh highway system that we’re using? like, “Oh, I there’s a new steel rod coming out next year, right?” Like, there’s people like that on the planet. Like, and their literacy in highways is higher than anyone’s will ever be. But most everyone else is probably like, “Yeah, I take the exit when I need to. I take the on-ramp.” >> I ran into when I was doing laundry in like this shitty apartment complex I used to live in. There was a PhD guy. He had a PhD in some sort of chemistry sub field where he his job was to improve the quality of highway uh material like that’s what his job was. >> Oh god. >> To like >> probably >> make it last longer. Yeah. >> Organic chemistry. >> Inorganic chemistry >> from civil engineer perspective kind of thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So like he’s the one who like uh who’s the like who are the people who do chemical compounding like for painters and all that Chemical engineers. >> No, no. I mean like company. >> No, no, no. Like the company that built Kevlar that made Kevlar. >> I don’t know. I don’t call them specifically. >> What? >> What did my brother say at my bachelor party? He was like, “My goal in life at this point is to be the most memorable NPC.” >> I want to be the most memorable NPC that people come across. The one that gets the memes. the one that’s like, “Everybody loves that NPC. Everybody knows about that NPC.” He was like, >> “Why did he say that?” >> I love that. >> I think he said that. Oh, you were there that day. >> You were there that day. We went to like the beach. No, no, not the beach. We went to the pool. >> Oh, when you guys got high. >> What? We don’t do those things. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? We didn’t know that. >> I saw the pictures. Uh we the pictures don’t exist actually. >> Um anyway, >> Dupond Dupont was the company is what I was talking about. >> Okay. I was going to write a book about this. I still want to write a book about >> being an NPC. >> No, the whole uh information specialty asymmetry. Like there’s this trade-off between how much you know about something or like when you when you go down the depth of a specialty as you go further and further down into that depth, the less viral or spreadable that information is, >> right? And so >> interesting, >> you get to and you only have a certain amount of capacity to spend time in a certain environment of information. >> Yeah. >> And so you have to kind of choose in various portions of your life. Like during my PhD, I was very very very deep in a very in a very niche specialty that I I can only talk to about with about three people in the whole world at that level of specialty. >> Yeah. And so, but as you go up into the I guess complexity of information, until you get to the surface level, you’re at basically memes, which is the most viral piece of content available, >> in which you’re spreading something that is incredibly viral, but you’re you’re spreading it in such a way in which consuming that information requires zero thought. >> In fact, you even get some feeling associated with it. With a meme, you’re supposed to feel a specific way about a specific piece of information. And there’s that trade-off. >> Surf this. >> Huh? >> I was I was going to say people who surf this the best are like comedians. >> Yeah. So comedians are able to >> uh give people information about things they already know, but in a way they didn’t know it >> or like see it in the fashion like that when they’re able to do that that like, oh, I I see it that way. And that’s funny. An interesting way to look at it, right? That’s like >> the bigger the laughs, the more that what they said was structured in a way that it tapped knowledge that people already had >> and be like if if a room fills with laughter that means they all get the joke and it has to be delivered in such a simple way. And so like to your point once you get into a a domain like for instance if we were if we were trying to figure out how to write the uh like AI for the keystone like that’s there’s nothing funny funny about that. There’s nothing sharable about that. It’s just we have to do a thing and we have to learn some specific information. >> You’re doing it for a reason, right? >> It’s a means to an end. Correct. Yeah. >> So maybe that’s that’s that’s the point. It’s like it’s not exciting to learn the things that actually move move things the most. I mean, yeah, but like you get this then you get to this other I think general trend in personal development that I’m latching on to and I’ve I’ve learned to embrace as I’ve gotten older and that the way in which you improve yourself is by committing to the boring stuff, right? >> Kick the tree. >> Like yeah, kick the tree. You get up, you go to the gym, you eat good food, you like you study, you like you spend time doing real things regularly, you write like, you know what I mean? It’s not I party like a rock star every night and now I’m a super successful person. Like that’s not how you develop skills other than maybe like partying like and so like personal development is through doing boring >> Yeah. >> Kick the tree as D likes to say like you get you do bone hardening by hardening your bones and kicking the tree regularly. >> Yeah. For those of you who don’t know what kicking the tree means, you need to go watch JeanClaude Vanam. This is a documentary actually called Kickboxer. And then there was a second documentary called Blood Sport about a combat about a underground martial arts combat arena. >> What a movie. >> Jesus Christ. They don’t make that kind of anymore. >> Pime Bill like the whole Pime thing. That that’s a example of like you gota >> gota do that >> re-releasing Kill Bill like next month with an extra 45 minutes of footage built into it. Yeah, I’m going to go watch that. >> Cuz she said I didn’t really like Kill Bill and she said that like last week and I was like are you kidding me? Are you >> sorry I picked the wrong one. She reminds me put the toilet paper on backwards. So the second talking point um that we were going to go through today is centered around >> before you do that if you yeah you want to commit to doing the boring thing you can follow me and Jesse >> as we walk through incredibly it’s incredibly boring >> we’re doing the incredible boring thing walking through an entire textbook on zero knowledge. Uh, so hit that like and subscribe button. You’ll you’ll get it and you can come join us on the >> Yep. >> adventure of learning zero knowledge together. >> There are brief moments though where like there’s some sort of intuition that you’re like, “Oh, that’s cool.” And then like, “Oh, that like it unlocks like an aha moment and then it’s part of something incredibly important in cryptography.” >> That that’s that’s like >> we try and do like conjecture and like what is this useful for? I think it’s useful for this. And we look it up like it is useful for that. >> Yeah. this um if you want to commit to the boring, you can rock with us also in the Discord uh where there’s lots of there’s lots of people in the Discord. That that QR code gets you into the Discord. By the way, if you’re on Twitch, give us a follow. You never know where it might lead. If you’re on YouTube, give us a subscribe. You’ll see us pop up and talk about more boring things. Um but nevertheless, that QR code is there. >> Um yeah, man. We’ve had a pretty good amount of people come in and out. >> Andy Yonan joined us. >> Andy Yonan. Yeah. >> Talking about crypto. So, talking point number two we wanted to get into is privacy or as the Brits would say, privacy. Uh user experience versus mass usability, right? Is it a zero- sum trade? Right. Uh, I don’t think it’s a zero sum trade. I think there’s going to be people that want to be private and people that don’t. And I think there’s >> What does that mean? What do you mean by that? Is it >> the colors up there? >> Zero sum trade, right? >> Is it a zero sum trade? Like ah that that that’s why I got paused on that question is like what zero sum with who? those that want to be private versus usually a measure of scarcity. So, but like that all but you can’t trade privacy, right? And so, like when I think of a zero sum game, it means that >> I think you versus >> the only way that I win is if other people lose. That’s the that’s the definition of zero sum, right? It’s not that >> it’s like and so um there’s an inverse relationship between privacy and usability for sure. Like for instance, as you crank that privacy knob, you take a performance hit. You take a usability hit. Think about like Bitcoin and private keys. Like we all know that having a private key is already too complicated for normal people. Like it only gets worse as you crank that privacy knob. >> Yeah. So what happens was um when you make something that is say completely private um as an administrator which what that does is it makes it also very very very generic. the the the tubes that move that information from one person to another as you’re communicating or leveraging that platform are are dumb. They don’t know what they’re moving. They’re just doing what they’re told and they have no ability to alter that in any way, shape, or form. When you start to release some of that information such that the tubes that connect everything can parse and look at some of that information they’re moving. They can then do optimization. They can do like like your router for instance, right? Now your router looks at every packet that comes through it and makes a judgment call on how it moves that packet based on who it’s going to, what type of service it is, this type of stuff, right? If it can never see that information, it can’t do that optimization. And so it can only work towards a it can’t optimize. And so you’re limiting your ability to optimize the system because you don’t have information to optimize with. >> That’s an interesting way to look at it and think about it like that. And so there is a trade-off. There’s a fundamental trade-off to privacy. And I’m curious to see how we do things like zero knowledge that allow us sufficient optimization to have a usable thing. And I don’t know the answer to that. There’s a trade-off. Let’s look at it. Well, well, let’s go with what we do know and what we have done, right? There’s small things that make things like kind of usable and understandable. Like with the internet, there’s the HTTP versus HTTPS. I think everyone knows the difference at this point. Don’t go to a website if it’s HTTP unless you built the >> and it’s running locally on your system kind of thing. >> No financial or private information associated with being on the website or talking to it. >> Yeah. Like go in there knowing that anything you put in there going to get gone, right? And then there’s HTTPTTPS which is secured encrypted. Don’t know how anymore. Forgot. But everybody knows if a website has HTTPS it’s safe to go to safe to go to right like there’s there’s like there’s a basic level but like crypto there is no HTTP or HTTPS or at least not that I know of. I know Zama weren’t they trying to get to your knowledge like ZKVMs are an attempt in some capacity. Well, the one we’re building is because it’s optimized for privacy, not for scaling. There’s still problems at the at the lower and lower lower layers of privacy that can um introduce leaks that can then be used to either sensor information, optimize, whatever, right? So there’s no real see the thing the what what TLS does um which is what the S is in HTTPS is encrypts the connection between you and and the server that you’re talking to that’s hosting the web page you go to. So that way as my packet moves from my computer to that server, >> it’s less likely to be snooped on and intermediated or changed or altered like some man-in-the-middle attack or something like it to like so that you made the tube dumb. >> It just gets it goes to the server, server unpacks it, understands it goes and you can you can talk back and forth and what’s called a secure channel. So that anyone who’s watching that channel, say for instance, if I send that website, my credit card information to buy something on Amazon, no one who’s watching that channel of information can extract it. They can’t see it. And so if we look at that endpoint to endpoint path for for blockchains, there is no such thing as TLS. There are there’s so many areas along that path where information gets leaked in various ways. And the goal is to try and get to a point where we can have something like that where like the entire the entire pathway the entire pipeline from me sending a transaction to it showing up on someone’s application, >> okay, >> is completely completely encrypted. It’s a dumb pipe and that’s going to take a lot of work because it’s way more complicated than just making a handshake to a server and getting served a website. when you look at like people doing um um forensic analysis on mixing protocols like rail gun or um oh my gosh my memor is failing the the one that was u sanctioned by OFAC tornado cache. So like there’s timing there’s amounts like balances being moved and then you try and cluster these uh to try and dox who is moving what. Um, like there there’s an I think uh somebody on like there’s a OSEN subreddit and I think one of those there’s a there’s a website that somebody has there and it’s like basically tools to dox anything and everything and there’s there’s a lot of interesting crypto doxing tools where you can like for instance I ran this on our on our TBP donation address because we have a Bitcoin address and we have Ethereum address. I could see like everybody who donated to our addresses. I can see like all the wallet relationships like all of that like and that’s just a very basic OSENT tool like you can make some really crazy OSEN tools nowadays and like that’s the whole point of what we were talking about earlier why I was saying D like the people who work at banks who are probably like forensics experts like you have to be able to program these people are like chain analysis people is like a it >> they’re good they’re good at what they do and they have >> deep specialty with all of that stuff. >> Zack XBT, like that dude like he Yeah. And like what’s her name? Uh >> Taylor, >> not Mariah. Taylor. I don’t know why I thought Mariah. >> Mariah. >> For some reason, I was thinking Mariah Carey. I don’t know why. Taylor. Taylor, you don’t even look anything like Mariah Carey. Actually, I apologize. Um, look at this comment, dude. >> I know. He went down. >> Oh, so Curry being stomp. No, Corey and I have known each other for like two decades. There’s no He’s just gathering his thoughts, but we appreciate you trying to stir the pot, I guess. All right. Um, so it’s not a zero sum game. It’s I don’t even know why the the questions are phrased that way, you know, but like you said, it’s like there’s there’s trade-offs, right? They’re like it’s like the triangle, right? Like performance, decentralization, like all that >> Uh security, >> I I mean I guess it’s saying is that >> if you move in one direction either via >> either towards privacy UX >> or mass usability >> is it like is it like if I move towards usability do I do I am I guaranteed to remove privacy >> and I don’t think it’s 100% that case there is certainly a trade-off there that exists like fundamentally a trade-off that exists there but I think we can there’s still a lot of room for us to play with providing a very very private usable experience. >> Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think ultimately like what everybody’s waiting for and even what you know if Logos is trying to do is private blockchains and like >> everybody’s trying to do this right now and like there are apparently weaknesses in Zcash that like I’ve seen I’ve read so much literature on Zcash and comparing it and Monero like everybody kind of knows Monero is like the best if you’re committing crimes. Uh but like even it has its own weaknesses in terms of being able to like um try to reverse the built-in mixing of of amounts in Monero. But at least it’s not as obvious as Zcash in terms of the shielding and unshielding of transactions where like there was a paper that basically said if you’re trying to use Zcash for privacy. Like there is a way to do it but you’re not accessing your balance daily. It’s a store of value essentially because you want like value at rest is most private versus moving money frequently. And to be fair, like having a private blockchain, like it it will make DeFi, which is the only thing keeping public blockchains alive, very difficult to implement and for people to adopt. And that’s the whole point like that’s why ME is able to exist because people are dejing on chains, public chains. >> What do so what do you feel about the recent all this stuff? Sometimes I it’s been happening so long to me I barely even care about it. But it can be rippling words. For example, Jamie Diamond got on the news yesterday and he done a he he did a complete 180. He’s >> ever talked about crypto. Like it was crazy. Like he was like, “Yeah, this is the future. >> Everyone needs to be in our company needs to be figuring out a way to implement smart contracts.” >> They’ve been they’ve been on crypto while they secretly built try to understand things. things. >> Don’t take my old classics out of my mouth. Don’t take my old >> No, you can’t be talking about You can’t be not saying your classic now. >> Um, I’m not going to say it again. I feel like at a certain point you say things so many times you’re just like, “Okay, nobody’s listening anymore.” That’s why old men just get crocketty. Or is it rockety? Rochety. Crotchety. >> Crotchety. They’re just like, “I’m not saying it anymore. >> I’m tired of saying it. >> I’m not gonna I’m not gonna say it anymore. We’re just going to sit in this chair and fart and sleep. >> Speaking of which, >> we re like we rebuilt the website for the sole purp like for me I rebuilt the website >> and I’m continuing as a rebuilding website for the sole purpose of figuring out what the hell I’ve said or we’ve said over the years too. >> Wait, Corey, hold on. You got to say I rebuilt the website again. Give me a second. All right, say it one more time. >> I rebuilt the website again. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, but like >> the Quartz repo. Shout out to the Quartz. You should do that, >> dude. Quartz. Jackie Zowl is the man. Yeah, I use Quartz as a as a as a piece of software for making websites off of Obsidian vaults >> probably more than I should. Uh >> more than you should. 100%. >> Here’s a different kind of question. But at the same time like I’m able to like search this stuff now and see like there’s a lot more work to do >> but looking through all the websites looking website and look at all the stuff we’ve done and then I’m making inter like links in between all of them so I can see like oh this person has been on all of these shows this many times when I start adding more resources to it and get transcript we’re going to see like oh we talked about the idea of me through all of these episodes see that Right. And then that’ll just be cool to kind of see like how things have evolved over the years because >> how our conversation webs >> Yeah. And like and like even just the concepts that we like how we thought about things back in 2015 was >> so different than how we how we see things today. >> You’ll drop >> I think our like fifth episode was like Eric Vorhees. >> Uh it was it was episode five. I I remember being extremely nervous to talk to him because I don’t know how >> dope for like a no a bunch of nobodyies in 2015 talking with Eric Vorhees. >> Hey Mr. Borhees, how you doing man? Uh bro have good microphones. >> Yeah, cello and I were talking on the same desk, Jesse. Like he was on the opposite of the desk and our voices were just echoing in the mics and then in post-production I would have to like >> edit all that echo out. It was terrible. But anyways, >> I wonder if the people in the audience even know who Eric Vorhees is cuz like we’d know him >> probably. But >> it’s a good question. Do you guys know who Eric Vorhees is? If you do, say yes in the comments. If you don’t, then say, “Who’s that guy?” And then we’ll point and laugh at you. No, I’m kidding. He’s >> He is a godfather of crypto. >> Bitcoin OG. >> Phillips says, “Yes, Phillips, man. I saw your comment earlier. Thanks for catching us twice in a row. This is, you know, usually Tuesdays are going to be our day to do this. So, um, >> yes, he was a Bitcoin OG. He sold his poker game for like >> I don’t how many like how many? It was like hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin at the time. I think >> he’s an Ethereum OG, too. >> Yeah, he was he was one of the first of the Bitcoin early Bitcoiners to to like accept the fact that Ethereum was a thing that was going to stick around. And that’s why he made shape shift was to start moving coins around different different networks in a in a privacy preserving manner because like Bitcoin only had Bitcoin and but then we had this like proliferation of of similar chains to Bitcoin but Ethereum was the only really differentiated one. Most of the other ones were just like Bitcoin but they just changed the hashing algorithm to script or something else like that. >> Yeah, he his foresight is just tremendous dude. like he wrote with the shape shift the group of shape shift protocols like thinking so far ahead of time to where like you don’t have to care at all what money someone pays you with you’ll just get what you want whatever money you need to do your life right >> bartering system right he’s just he was talking about going back to a bartering system because we have the infrastructure to do it >> way back then >> the bartering system works it’s just so damn messy dude like you can actually account for it on like standard uh what is it gaps for the gap what are they called gaps the the accounting principles general accounting principles and systems or whatever >> no clue >> yeah it’s called gaps and you can account for barter but like nobody wants to do it cuz it’s just like hey man I’ll give you five free nights at my hotel if you give me some countertop >> be like okay sure how do you account for that right it’s bananas but anyway coincidence once. >> That’s the the problem you’re solving is the coincidence of once. >> Yeah. That’s why money even exists to begin with. >> I’ve heard of that a long time ago. >> If you read the >> I know they can do that, right? >> What is that book about? Is it 5,000 years of debt maybe that goes through this in terms like the basically the the technological >> um history of money. >> So that’s what the bargaining system had the problem of coincidence of once. So, we invented a proxy. >> We’re going to do two hard switch ups here in the conversation. The first is like a personal question because this is just and we’re all adults here. Like when you guys like do something like when you have a really productive day and you get something done that you’ve been trying to get done for like a long time, does it make you want to like it makes me want to take my wife to pound town? Like is there does that phenomena exist for you guys? >> No. What happens? Then you do something like when you had a productive day and then like a project that you finally can put the pin on like I’m done with that. Did that. >> I feel good about that. Do it. Did it. >> No. No. Do you do you want to have sex with your wife as a result? >> I mean I always want to have sex with my wife. So like >> I don’t know. As a result in a better mood which makes those types of feelings more uh prevalent because I’m not bogged down by other stuff. So sure. >> Boom. We got a yes. Jesse said no. Jesse said, “No, not really. I just feel like I got something.” >> There’s a separation of concerns. Like, it’s irrelevant. >> It all bleeds together. >> I want to run this back a little bit because the internet is forever. And I do always want to bang my wife 100% of the time, >> baby, you and me. >> 100% wake up wanting to do it, go to sleep wanting to do it. Love you, boo. >> 2012, Vorhees launched Satoshi Dice. Uh, and so at one point it would account for half of all Bitcoin transaction volume. >> In 2013, so a year later, he sold Satoshi Dice for 11.5 million worth of Bitcoin. >> God damn. >> So he got 11.5 million worth of Bitcoin in 2013. >> Real trap >> Doing so bad. >> Let’s see. Let’s see. >> Real trap >> That’s a lot of money, dude. only and then two years later after his settlement with SEC was finalized uh he he launched shape shift which was >> wait how many >> he launched.3 million >> what >> 11.3 million >> 11.5 million >> 11.5 so the price was $13 at the beginning and then it spiked to 1100 in December so what price do you want to use >> I don’t care >> so he has at most 870,000 Bitcoin And at the smaller end is it uh >> that’s just for this sale too because like he was he was a Bitcoin OG in the past. So yeah he had a lot of correct >> he entered into Bitcoin before he first encountered Bitcoin in 2011. So back then Bitcoin was very >> very cheap. >> So he has five five to six figures of Bitcoin at at that time during that sale somewhere in that range. Boy, he’s got a lot of money, baby. >> Just like we did. >> I hope he’s not a weird rich dude. >> Like rich rich dudes get weird like lately. Like that’s the trend for the last hund and some odd years is that rich people are weird. Like I hope he’s not weird. I mean I would argue run out of time but uh anybody who is absurd like obscenely rich is not a normal person. They are like >> a couple sigas from the mean >> of normal way to I mean all kinds of ways >> all the ways you don’t you don’t do extraordinary things by being ordinary >> like by definition You do >> no you don’t you do not do extraordinary things by >> you do such weird sex acts if you are incredibly wealthy >> I mean I don’t have to make that correlation but like when you’re already like >> it puts the >> you already view things differently than everyone else does that then that then put you in a position to make a bunch of money because other people didn’t see that opportunity you’re more likely to be weird in other ways too. It doesn’t have to be sexual, I’m pretty sure. But like, have you read those stories? Have you read those stories about the Saudi people? Like >> they fly in models and Okay, we’re just going to talk about them. Talk about >> Okay, I’ve not heard these stories. I don’t think we need to. >> It’s uh freaky deicky with a capital F and a capital D. >> Yes. Yes. Um, so I guess we had one more talking point, but it’s something that we could talk about in the next episode and we will talk about in the next episode. Um, because we’ve had this conversation, literal arguments about this, I think like Corey gets red cuz he’s a redhead. So Cy will turn red when he argues and that’s how you know he’s arguing rather than having a discussion. It doesn’t happen often, but he’s turning red, he’s arguing with you >> or he’s drunk, >> right? Or >> or he’s drunk, right? So, or both, right? No, cuz if he’s drunk, he turns maroon >> or he or he got out of jiu-jitsu. >> Yeah. >> Anyways, the question is, do builders have responsibility beyond tooling? >> Clip that. That’s what we’re going to talk about next episode. I know. Look at the wheels. They’re turning already. >> It’s just they’re just these these these these questions are so illformed. >> No, they’re not. You just got to think. You just got to think about it. You just got to think about the question. I think they’re good questions. >> Oh god. All right, whatever. We I’ll fight about it next time. >> Think about it like this, man. Think about Think about it. You’re in medieval times, right? And you’re a builder of things. You’re a blacksmith. And the king comes down to the stairs and the king’s like, “Hey, just had an orgy >> and I thought about a torture device I need you to make.” >> Okay. You’re the one that’s got to build it. >> You’re the one that’s got to build it, right? You You got to build a torture device. responsibility understand what the question is asking the words that are used to ask the question are bad >> okay so it how anyways think >> I mean I’m autistic I’m gonna I’m gonna about these things it’s fine >> just state >> I just want to say that I was lurking in the home lab discords shout out all you autistic uh it it’s they sound like Corey but like on steroids like people were >> granularly correcting other people Tom. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome though. I enjoy listening to that cuz like you learn stuff cuz people are very particular about being accurate about the >> um actually is usually the >> Yes. Yes. The meme. Yeah. >> Stop with it. >> Actually, no. Um Okay. So, sorry guys. We’re I’m not going to go too crazy with the sound effects here. We got >> half of our viewers from that sound. >> Dude, we lose half like every 3 minutes. I That number goes up and it goes down. I’m not even at this point. >> It’s up again. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you’re still back, uh, if you go here right now, scan that, it’ll take you to a Discord invite link. That’s the that’s the invite link to the Bitcoin podcast Discord. In that Discord, you will find us, but you will also find builders, investors, traders, Bitcoin OGs, Ethereum OGs, Ethereum news, lurkers. It’s it’s a great microcosm of the crypto community in general. Um, you’ll find privacy advocates. You’ll find people building hardware. You’ll find people using hardware and talking about it. You’ll find gifts of >> Salahek. Like half of all those things. >> Yep. Sometimes you can even participate. And there’s a bot. There’s a bot. We got bots. There’s a bot in there. And you can win TBP token for doing things with the bot. Like, hey, there’s this I really >> you’re you’re you’re exchanging services for payment. >> Yeah. Right. And like everything in crypto, you’re gonna get a bunch of tokens. Maybe they’ll have value, maybe they won’t. We can’t tell you they can because that’s illegal. But you’ll get some tokens and then maybe one day those tokens will be worth more than tokens, right? But if that is actually going to happen, but I can definitely launch a token. >> Yeah, we’ll launch a token, you’ll get the tokens. So, for example, if you make a interview recommendation to us and we end up interviewing that person, you’ll get some tokens. If you find a grant program of some sort of obscure crypto that you think has >> education >> and it’s educational and you want us to dive into that grant program and see if we can either a per be a part of it or b create media for it and we do those things, boom, you’re going to get a piece of that action. Uh, >> usually we do token buybacks. So, we we’ll take a percentage of the tokens that are associated with whatever the grant or sponsorship is, and we’ll put it towards operating costs of the podcast, which is like Google Suite, paying for the StreamYard subscription, all the that we pay for, and then a percentage of that will go to buying back the token, and then another percentage of it will go to you, who basically gave us that lead. So, it’s basically lead we’re paying you for uh lead generation and leads that actually qualify to being uh useful. That’s it. >> Yep. Clip that. We forgot to say clip that this entire episode, by the way. We We really have to get to the hang of that. >> Um yeah. Anyways, uh so we’re going to roll out for here soon. We’re going to do our shout outs. Shout out to old long neck wide smile Zoe Salana, the highest grossing female actor of all time. >> Did you really? >> Yeah. >> Because of Avatar 3. >> Because of Marvel and be because of Disney hardcore. That’s it. That’s all you have to do is say Disney, right? Highest grossing of all time. Shout that. Shout out to her. Shout out to the Dominican Republic. >> How How much money out of curiosity? >> Millions. >> I’m going to look this up then. >> I don’t know. It just said highest grossing and it was coming from her Instagram account. So, I figure she knows, right? Um, she’s come a long way since twerking in Drum line to being a giant blue alien for the rest of her life cuz there’s three more Avatar movies that are supposed to come out. Can you believe that? Can you believe that? >> She’s not the not the highest grossing female actress. >> Scarlet Instagram was wrong. >> Scarlet Scarlet Johansson. >> Yeah. >> O, dude. Just think about it. Think about how many more Black Widow movies she made. >> Fact checked. >> Yeah. So she’s she’s leading. >> But yeah, she’s got the avatar. >> She does have Avatar. >> Avatar is expensive, dude. >> Avatar is expensive. >> Anyways, >> if you want to fact check real time. >> Yeah. If you want a fact, Zoe Salana is among the highest grossing actresses ever, having starred in films that have collectively earned over 15 billion, placing her second only to Scarlett Johansson in alltime box office gross for actors with recent success from Avatar, Fire, and Ash continuing to boost her totals and potentially putting her in the top spot soon. So, yeah, maybe Avatar puts her over. >> So, she’s like around the corner, >> maybe. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, anyways, >> I hate Avatar. Just >> dude, I actually thought I did and I watched it again and I’m enamored again. I watched it on my big TV, my big nice TV or two >> with all the stuff. I watched one and then two and I was like, you know what? >> Interesting. >> These movies look so good. It makes the story better. >> It It definitely looks good for sure. >> I I watched it again recently and I was really impressed. I want to go see this third one soon. And plus, James Cameron is one of my favorite directors. him second and uh Christopher Nolan first. So that’s how >> Can I Can I Can I drop a a question to the audience as like a final thing? >> Yeah. >> Okay. If anybody in our audience uh likes Warhammer 40k, give me a book recommendation where to start because I’m I’m into it. I just don’t know where to start because hundreds of >> If you get one of those, you made it all the way through the end of this podcast. So kudos. >> Oh my god, Jesse. If we if we get start see a live stream and we start seeing your your Warhammer board back there instead of that fridge island situation. >> I’m not going to get into the board game. I just want to read the books. >> Nerd. >> If you get into the board game, I’ll get into the board game. >> I’m not going to do that. >> I’m not. >> Yeah. I’m not metal figures. >> You need a You need a very large amount of allocatable to get into. >> I don’t have that. I have a 3D printer I got to dive into. That’s That’s going to be enough of my time. >> Yep. >> I don’t. >> So, to those of you that collect the most TBP token in the year of 2026, Jesse is going to 3D print a small back ticker for you and your loved ones. >> Small what? >> Small back ticker. >> I’m definitely I’m definitely not going to do that. >> Yes, he is. Click that.