Episode Description
Corey, Jessie, and Dee try and reshape the narrative that “adoption is the only thing that matters.”
Watch Episode
Transcript
Click to expand transcript
or go live. >> It’s a Bitcoin. The only one that’s making your money in you to the Bitcoin market. So hold on to the Bitcoin. >> Looks like that for you. Looks fine for me. >> Yeah, I look good. We look We all look good. Hey everybody, welcome to the Bitcoin Podcast. This is uh season 2, episode 13, lucky number 13. Um if you guys are just joining the Bitcoin podcast, we hope that you hit like and subscribe. Uh because you guys know that that helps us get numbers on the internet and numbers on the internet are close to equaling numbers in real life. >> No, they’re better than numbers in real life. >> Internet numbers are the only numbers these days. >> Internet influencers. We’re trying to influence you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Right. We want you guys. >> Let’s help you get influenced. >> Yeah. For sure. Like for sure. Absolutely. So anyways, I’m host talks first, D. Almost didn’t say my name. >> Host number two, Dr. Corey Petty, >> and I’m host number three, Jesse. >> Yeah. Should we like introduce like what we do? >> Like usually people are like, “This is why you should be listening to me cuz I’m a person of statute.” >> Or should we just let it roll? Like >> Yeah, it’s a good word, isn’t it? >> I don’t think it’s the right word. >> Yeah. I’m a person of stature. >> That’s better kind. >> The good kind. >> Needs a little bit more context. But yeah, >> the kind that people Whoa. What you drinking? Is that a Louis Vuitton soda? >> No. No. It’s one of those like uh protein drink things from Costco. See, >> there’s protein in everything these days, man. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yep. Yep. should make a drink, protein drink, call it ropes and then um try and sell it. >> Shoot ropes. >> Nope. Nobody would drink it. >> I bet some people would drink it. >> Some people drink it. >> So, let’s go. Um, so let’s see. Let me get started, blob. So, Oh, Jesus Christ. This teleprompter is on acid. I can’t read that fast. >> Are you going to read? Are you going to try to read again? >> Yeah, I’m going to try to make it look natural. >> Good luck. Here we go. This This teleprompter is like on gang busters. I don’t know how to slow this thing down. Hold up, let me try this. Here’s the uncomfortable truth we keep dancing around. Most people don’t want sovereignty. They want convenience number go up and someone else to blame when it breaks. So, if crypto keeps failing to go mainstream, maybe that’s not a bug. Maybe it’s the filter. >> It’s not bad. You’re doing okay with the eyes. It’s getting there. I’m practicing. >> Yeah, I can’t do that. So bad. >> Practice makes perfect is is what they say. >> So I I guess like really what we want to talk about, right? And if you guys have been listening to us for uh longer than any shake of a dog’s tail, dog’s leg, shake of a dog’s >> something >> general essence. Uh there’s this myth of universal adop adoption is the only thing that matters, right? That’s what we’ve said. We said for 10 years, >> a decade and a half, we’ve said that, right? And now as adoption is like here and it’s looking like it’s mainstream, it’s like it sucks kind of like these are things we’ve said on the show for the past I don’t know two years now. But today we’re going to just talk about a little bit more in depth, right? So, um, if you were listening to the last conversation we had, there were some historical parallels like of of what’s happening with, uh, crypto and the internet, right? Hold. I I keep looking at the vertical thing and nobody sees my hands, so I have to like do this. >> So, if you’re watching on Instagram or probably just Instagram. >> Yeah, probably. >> Do the you can’t see his hands. Yeah, I talk with my hands and you can’t see it if you’re only looking at my face, but like anyways, um, so you know, some parallels, right? So most internet users don’t understand the internet. Let’s say that’s a significant most. I’ I’d say it’s probably 97%. >> If not more, >> if not more, right? And then most people rely on encryption without knowing what it is. They probably never heard the word. They’re like, what? HTTP heard the >> people nowadays bet people have heard the word encryption. Okay. Yeah, we’ll take it to 6040. 60 people have heard it. 40 people have >> Google it. >> You know what would be cool if we had one of us we just rotate it and one of us is like in the public like in a Walmart and then for questions like this. >> I’m not doing that. You could walk up to somebody and say, “Hey, have you heard of the word encryption?” >> I’m not doing that. >> Oh, you know, like, so we could be those like annoying people that interview people randomly in public. >> Yeah. >> Tasium did that. That was like his entire show in the beginning. >> In fact, you know, we’d probably get quite the following if we did it only when clubs let out and we only talked to super hot chicks. We get quite the following. >> I’m not doing that. >> You should do that, D. That’s a very good idea. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. None of us are single. We ain’t doing that. >> Yes, definitely. Say, “Hey, wife and kids. Daddy’s got to go out at 1:45 in the morning to go film some footage for his Bitcoin podcast show.” So, anyways, um let’s get back to the task at hand. Are people willing to do what it takes to take some of their web self- sovereignty back, right? or are they always going to delegate that sovereignty to something or someone because it’s just too hard? Too hard. Like that’s kind of like the conversation that I think revolves around crypto in general is like people want self- sovereignty, but are they willing to do what it takes to have that? >> I mean, >> probably not. >> It depends, right? So, like that’s such a loaded term because and in and all everyone any any any person’s life they’re only going to care about a small amount of things and the rest of it they’re going to offload. They’re going to be like I don’t like whatever the norm is just do that I don’t care. >> Mhm. And so most people self-s sovereignty is somewhat in the periphery unless they happen to run into the need for it in which they want to like take their data somewhere else, own it, not not not let it be manipulated in some way, shape or form, which may change as the internet and social media and what runs the internet changes over time. um or they have some ideology that that backs it up. So like most people in their everyday lives won’t care unless they have to or want to. And that’s a small section of people, but like it’s very important. It’s really important. This is why I would argue that it’s the most important is it needs to be there when that person makes the decision that they want it or need it. It can’t be something that like they decide they need and it not exists. >> That’s really important. And so for those of us that try and build an internet that allows for self- sovereignty, you’re giving those people that option. That’s the main thing. So like we would like to care. We would like people to care but that doesn’t isn’t isn’t for me it isn’t a requirement. >> What about you Jess? You think that like you know it should be a requirement for people to have to care about this stuff to just use it and do stuff? Um, no, not really. >> What about in the current stage, right? Because like a lot of early tech stuff in early internet stuff, it kind of was a requirement. Like nobody was like, “Man, I’m not going to MS DOS and writing a crazy ass script just to connect to somebody’s computer, right?” Like people would like not do that. There was only a there was a small group of people that were willing to >> enthusiasts. >> Yeah. And like are we past that stage in crypto or are we still at that stage because everything is so it seems like oh it’s very very mature because it’s very very valuable but in reality like there’s still so far to go that like is it still a requirement like oh you got to be into this stuff? >> That’s a hard one. It depends. Uh >> she said yes. >> We’re not there yet. It’s still early. still really really really really really early. But the interesting thing about it is that even noobs or GPPS as we like to call them on the show for those who are listening the first time, general purpose people like they can get access to it in a way like they can get exposure to it. Like it isn’t like the early internet where you needed to have some serious knowhow just to even get exposure to it. M now like because of the way the internet has has has propagated to become the backdrop of everything. Everyone has phones on their in their hands and we can make apps to make it easy. Anyone can get exposure to these things right now in like a real consequential way by like by like by like by like by like by like by like by like by like by like by like buying a bunch of and then it losing value and then losing a bunch of money. Uh but like that’s something that hasn’t really existed in the past is like the like the the ease in which you get exposure to it by not needing to know a bunch of stuff but also the fact that the technology itself is still really really really early. Yeah. I mean like practical example uh we all live in the US. We can all go out and buy a gun. Uh there’s a subset of humanity that buys a 3D printer to make their own gun at home, right? >> So like if you think about like privacy tech, it’s about kind of free speech and about, you know, protecting your individual liberties, right? >> How many people are going to nerd out and and take it to the next level and do the equivalent of printing their own gun versus go to a gun store and buy a gun? Not a lot of people. >> And that’s really what you end up having to do. Yeah. So, like I I just I just think it’s like any tool like uh you know if it looks cool to go to Home Depot and get a hammer and make some you know make like a doghouse or make like a mailbox, but am I going to personally go out and do that? No, not really. It’s just not it’s not my thing. So, like I think there are there’s like for people who gravitate toward playing around with computers, they discover a whole bunch of random stuff. Um, it’s it’s maybe I I would look at it like that. Like you can’t even get into uh privacy tech if you’re not even if you don’t if you don’t even walk through the door of playing around with computers in the first place. I guess you can >> uh if you consider all the people who work at the IF, but it’s much easier if you know something about how to use a computer to give you at least context of why this stuff matters versus coming into it as like a non-technical person who’s never pirated anything, who doesn’t know anything about internet culture because a lot of this is rooted in internet culture. So, if you don’t understand that, you don’t really understand why we’re doing what we’re doing. Um so yeah >> so to that point then if we were to reframe success like our our first 10 years of success was adoption is the only thing that matters right so like now it seems that like crypto doesn’t need everyone using it it just needs enough people able to use it and enough people able to exit for there to be this I’m trying to choose my words carefully because people listen but there be like uh I don’t know uh in enough human energy. We’ll say that very vague ooh human energy energy >> uh to like have enough power to keep things honest. So not everyone needs to use it to the point that you say but enough people need to use it. So there’s this checks and balances to the entire system. >> Yeah. Kind of >> that’s what success looks like. speak to like real examples because then it it would ground things versus what I’m trying to like abstract. >> People are like too for real, man. I’m not trying to look at the broad case, right? When you think like there’s ninjas, right? And so like for me personally and like and the efforts that I care about with this technology, I need enough people to care about those types of things to use the stuff that we end up making to give us good feedback on whether or not it’s serving them and what they need. I need to understand their problems so that I can we can build stuff that’s useful to them. And but when I look at the general like all of the use cases of crypto when people normally use crypto for or DeFi and NFTts I don’t give a about most of it. And so like that adoption isn’t something I really care about because I’m not actively looking for feedback there on to make to help me do my job and care more about and do a better job of what I what I plan on doing. For DeFi people, they need those people. So like it’s it’s such a general use technology that you you can differentiate at this point like so the answer to that question is like I guess depending on what you’re doing but like I don’t care about most of the stuff that people are doing on crypto most of the people things that people like when I tell people or they figure out that I work in this industry the types of questions I get have nothing to do with what I actually care about because their exposure like the adoption we have today is like what do I high. >> Yeah, >> that’s nothing. I don’t care about that. I’m not I’m not going to tell you that answer. And so that’s why I say we’re still early because like the things that I care about, no one knows. No one understands. That’s not what they think about when they hear the word crypto. >> But for playing markets and selling services and teaching people how to trade >> quote unquote, all that they care about those people. >> I think it’s a good way to reframe success. just need enough people, enough adoption, right? Not like all adoption. But anyways, real quick, we got to pause for the cause because we don’t do this enough. And I’ve watched enough crazy like videos to know that we should do this. So, if you’re just tuning in, there’s a Q code you can go, you can join our Discord. And what happens in that Discord? Conversations mostly. We’re not like walls to the wall with it, right? You know, but like there’s some stuff we do in there. We have conversations. We got >> conversation we’re having now in there right now to be honest. >> Yes, we’re having a really good conversation about like why do people volunteer to do things, right? So like you know if you’re just now tuning in and you like deep conversations and you like to participate in those kinds of conversations, right? Not everything is like what is it? Surface. There’s another word shallow, right? Not everything’s a shallow conversation. Join the Discord, right? And there’s going to be opportunities for you to win crypto quite obviously, right? Can we say that legally? We can say that >> probably. I mean, we’re not doing it right now. So, >> yeah. Don’t sue us. Whatever. Right. We’re gonna give you some stuff, right? We’ll give you stuff maybe, right, Jesse? >> He’s not even listening to you right now. >> You stopped paying attention a long time ago. Check it out. Why don’t you just say, why don’t you just say we have a TBP token on the Ethereum Solia test net that is deployed and we have a bot that’s used to interact with giving us grants or proposals for sponsorships that want to come our way like or if you have a guest that you’d like us to interview, why don’t you just use the bot to do that? >> Why don’t you just like that? I was trying to cue you up to say those things enthusiastically and I think we missed. We didn’t rehearse is what it was. I was trying to cue you up, but All right, taking that QR code down. We’re going to keep it going with the conversation. Please join the Discord. People like us like like you in there. We want you to be in there. So, I guess kind of like moving the conversation a little forward, right? We’ve always talked about scale. It seems like the truest scaling like limiter now if we’re not talking just technical, right? Is like there’s a crypto literacy problem that’s always going to be there, right? Like literally people don’t really understand it and they never will. They never try to, right? Right. And so that’s the true scaling factor is that all of the knowledge and the the technicals and the mechanics of this technology slashmoney slash you know it’s it’s always going to co it’s always going to aggregate and coales to like a small group of people who do know right because like it’s not that crypto doesn’t fail because it’s complicated. I think it’s simple structures layered on top of each other. It fails because like learning hurts and eventually learning hurts just like working out hurts and that’s something people don’t realize. So like when it gets to the hurt and the pain point of learning that next layer of crypto people are like no I’m done. I’m checking out. I personally have been there like as Ethereum evolves I’m getting to the point where like this is hard on my brain. I don’t want to learn anymore about this. like when when it moved from like proof of work to proof of stake and you got bouncers and then you’ve got uh what’s those people that are trying to frontr run transactions all the time? Me, you got me going on. It’s just like dude, this is like way way way more complicated than plug-in machine proof of work money come out. Like this is this is like one really did a good job of keeping things simple. I mean, as simple as simple as they’re going to get because I still most of the time explain newbies like explain crypto to newbies via via v via Bitcoin because it’s a it’s a more simple thing to explain. It’s still complicated >> when like when you when you talk to someone who has no initiation. It’s still complicated and that’s hard like just like the way in which the internet has trained us to think about things is so stupidly simplistic in not making them understand anything like oh no no no don’t worry about it we’ve taken care of everything offload all the responsibility you have and understanding to us we’ll handle it for you like the entire content the entire idea of the internet is to make someone feel that. >> And it’s extractive in a lot of ways. And that’s the reason why the internet is the way it is is because everyone gives you everything everything because it’s convenient. Don’t have they don’t worry about it. We’ll take care of it. It’s convenient. We’ll we’ll do that for you and we’ll profit off of it because you did it. And so when you introduce a model that’s so different than that, that is like literally like, “Oh no, you can’t do this until you learn. We’re not going to take care of it for you.” It’s it’s it’s different. And you’re right, most people don’t want that pain. >> They don’t. If you’ve been through the pain, like back 2017, 2015 to 2017, there was this huge huge huge influx of like uh the ICOs is what they called it, initial coin offerings, and everybody had a white paper. And I read so many I probably read close to five dozen white papers and like from front to back. And it’s not easy, right? Right? And you don’t understand all of it. A lot of it’s highly technical, but it went so far away from like plug in machine, machine does work, you get money. Like that was different because the ICOs were just a tokenization of something different. They were they were supposed to be a utility for some ecosystem, but it abstracted away all the underlying infrastructure because Ethereum took care of all that stuff. And so they had to justify all the like reasons why this token was a utility to whatever the market they were trying to adhere to. And that was always different and complicated and usually garbage because people were looking for money. They’re looking to find a way to tokenize or revolutionize whatever the it is, right? And so like that was all in I think a lot of ways especially when the ICOs got real hot, it was just it was like technobabble. It was like pseudo science. They’re just using the words because they knew that it would sell. They didn’t have anything underneath it. They didn’t know what they were talking about. That’s why >> a lot of the stuff in 2017 was vapor, >> like pure vapor or I mean I would I would argue a good portion of it was good intention just like naivity and maybe a lack of competence. the naivity I’m sorry had to be done which leads to toxicity of course but I don’t know like if we had to like I guess let’s debate about it right you got to pick you got to pick a side you two got to pick I’m I’m mediating and y’all two are debating I like this is it better to have and pause this is a preliminary pause because the word the the phrasing in in our notes is what it is. But is it better to have easy entry with a weak exit or a hard entry with a strong exit? >> What’s an exit? Like what is an entry and an exit here? >> What do you mean? >> I didn’t expect you to ask. I’m asking questions. I’m the mediator. >> Yeah. Well, you got to ask better questions. >> I mean, like, so, okay, so let’s roll it back. Let’s give some context. >> We’ve talked about people need an ability to exit. You specifically talk about this quite often, doctor. You say, “Hey, the exit is there. You don’t have to take the exit. You can ride along on the highway.” The exit being in our case the traditional financial system or the traditional way of governance, right? Because that’s what crypto is trying to ultimately either upgrade or upheave, right, these entrenched systems that aren’t really servicing everybody anymore. We talk about all the time. So that’s the exit. exiting that. So, is it better to have an easy entry with a weak exit or is Jesse frozen or just locked in? >> He’s locked in. He’s listening. >> Dang. >> Or reading. We don’t know. >> Or a hard entry. Hard entry with a strong exit. >> Still a bad question. It’s like it’s it misses the idea of the purpose of why you need consent. uh and how consent relates to entry and exit, right? And the and the answer is they both need to be smooth. They both need to be easy. You don’t and the idea is that in the event that you can enter and exit a system easily, it puts the onus on the system to cater to the people because they don’t have to stay there. If it’s very difficult to exit, then the people who are stuck in the system can be taken advantage of. And so you build systems that make it easy to enter and exit. I consent to entering into this ecosystem based on however it works. Great. Now I can’t blame anybody but myself for how I get treated within this ecosystem. Especially because if I don’t like it, I can leave. Right? And so when you have that dynamic where it’s easy to enter and exit into a system and and participate, then the system has to work for everyone involved. Otherwise, they leave. Like you always hear this this quote like vote with your feet, which means that don’t vote, leave. If you can’t leave, you can’t do that. And it’s very important that people have that option. >> The same thing is like vote with your money, right? And so like that’s where people say like for like the capitalism version of that is that if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. And then they can’t profit if they can’t sell whatever they’re whatever they’re selling and they’ll go under. That’s the kind of like vote with your money mentality. But if you’re forced to buy something, you don’t get to make that vote. And so the answer to the question that you’re trying to pose is the you need to be it needs to be easy to both enter into a system and exit a system at will so that the system >> All right, Jesse, what do you think? >> Because you got to debate the other side. You got hard entry, strong exit. >> No, I just I I I don’t know. This topic is kind of like not interesting to me because it’s so high level and abstract. Like there’s no tools that you’re discussing. There’s nothing like you just talking about like uh what’s the problem right? >> What do you mean exit? >> I mean >> I don’t think it’s for me to define >> you question. Yeah. >> I mean this isn’t for me to define. This is for like you guys. Well, hold up. No, let’s reel this back. You can’t just >> No, you can’t just divert. I’m not going to let y’all do that. I’m not going to let y’all juke through. You got to run through the A gap. And the A gap is you guys have been proposing that this privacy and being able to, you know, separate and exit from a system is powerful. That’s what people need. And people need their own sovereignty and they need these things. They need sovereignty over their data that they’re storing in a cloud. They need sovereignty over how they’re interacting in communities. These are the things that you guys are proposing, right? >> Yeah. Let’s go with data. If you if you keep it in that context, like do you want your data to be scanned? Like I don’t know. It’s up to you. I don’t I can’t answer for you. I know. I wouldn’t want all my data scanned. >> Well, you would at least like to consent to it. >> You would like the option. >> That’s never really an option, right? So, like why even why not why why even model that as a theoretical option when in reality like for instance, if I go through airport scanners, my bio my my biometric information, my eyeballs are scanned, right? That’s stored in a database somewhere for three years. And that allows them access to scan uh or to to look up uh more of my personal information in a government database somewhere, right? Um like why do they need so much access to who I am as a person? Uh I just I bought a ticket. Like the the only service I’m expecting is I board this plane and I go from A to B. like you shouldn’t have to investigate me and kind of invade my privacy about things that are irrelevant to this trip that I just purchased. Do you think how much of that is due to their inability to get the information they need without overexposure? Right. Because like right now, like say for instance, like this is where we get into the idea of zero knowledge a little bit is that like right now if I were to ask you how like are you are you 18 or older >> and you were to have to prove that to me, you would need to give me some identity that overexposes that answer to that question. >> Right. >> Like ideally you can prove it to me with just the ter with just the phrase yes and I can validate that somehow or another. Yeah. without right now you have to tell me your birthday your birthday tells me a lot more than >> right now right now practically I have to upload my ID card my state or driver’s license my password like that’s how you get authenticated with any centralized cloud provider right if I want to use AWS’s services I I need to upload proof of my identity uh that’s >> maybe that’s just a better way to phrase the whole argument right is like zero knowledge and privacy technology technology just increases the resolution of your ability to ask questions, answer questions about yourself. So instead of like my I would be able to say yes, I’m over 18 without telling you how old I am, my birthday, my address, everything >> right now. I can’t do that. So >> but that’s I don’t know what is that the qu is that answer >> if you look at >> is this helping you d in terms of the content you want to squeeze out of us having a conversation about what it means to exit? What? What are you talking about? We’re having a conversation. I’m not trying to squeeze no content out of you guys. You guys think >> you said a debate with a with a poorly with a poorly >> max. I’m not trying to suckle the teeth. I’m trying to like it’s we’re having a conversation here and this >> this is like it’s it’s there are tools out there that you can already use. Now whether they’re adopted by private corporations that are involved with things like that’s another story. >> All right. But that’s why it’s important, like so that you can preserve things about you that you don’t want other people to know. Like for instance, AI price uh discrimination, right? On Instacart, for instance, right? >> Do you want your groceries to cost more just because you use Instacart more than another person uses Instacart? Probably not, right? Do you want your vaccinations to cost more because you’re I don’t know or or your medication to cost more because you’re predisposed because uh whatever >> like is that is that something that you want? Probably not. >> I don’t think anybody wants those things. >> Okay. Well, that’s why you would exit it. Like that that’s the whole point of this. >> So you want something different. >> Exactly. It’s not that hard. >> I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna propose this. Um, >> you said it’s not that hard, but a lot of people don’t. I don’t think I think you guys don’t live a life in the 99%. You live a life%, >> right? And so there’s not everybody walking around every day that gets exposed to like the untapped. You guys have an untapped silo of internet that’s flowing through you at all time, right? And that’s not every people are out here living. Like they don’t know that there’s >> I know people talking about they all tell me like, “Wow, you know a lot of stuff.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I know random stuff.” >> Yeah, because you’re interneted hard. What’s your point? But my point is >> my point is this is that like I know what you’re talking about the grocery thing cuz I read the newspaper. But a lot of people don’t even do that, right? Like so people don’t know that’s a thing coming around the corner where their grocery prices will cost different. It’s already been a thing. Like the guy I talked to who is a consultant at Accenture, they’ve been already doing this for years. Like >> public with it. >> Like this last year Kroger came public and they’re like, “Yeah, we’re definitely doing that. We’re using your personal information to give you unique prices, >> right?” >> So your your your point is that >> what does them not knowing have to do? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> The fact that it happens and it’s bad. Well, because if more people knew then they would say like, “Yeah, no, I don’t want that.” >> What if we just build things in which it can’t happen? >> That’s that’s what we’re doing. Like we’re just like not even going to educate people. We’re just going to build the tools. So like when people go like for instance, I’ll give you a good example, right? Uh the proliferation of streaming platform services, right? That’s a that’s a problem, right? Not everybody wants HBO Max, Paramount Plus, Disney Plus, Hulu, Netflix, one of them just to see the all the games this week in for the NFL streaming services. >> Some people just use a de bridge service and then they can cable cut, right? It’s like it’s like modern version of like the early 2000s of >> early cable cutting. >> Yeah, it’s the bridge. >> It’s coming back back again. >> What’s the bridge? >> It’s the brid service. >> Clip that. >> Just look it up after the podcast. >> Clip that. >> Yeah. if you should say clip that multiple times in a row. We’ll see. >> It’s going to key in on everything. It’s going to the software is going to fail us. But okay, >> so these are all interesting points and this is why I asked the great debate question and you’re like why are you asking this question to get this juice, baby? >> Yeah. So these things exist. >> That’s what I’m saying. You’re squeezing us for content and like I want to tell a story here. >> What information do you not know that you’re asking for? >> I want to tell a story that I think is important here. Um and why this came to be because I don’t think all of this was intentional from the get-go, right? And so, like, if you look at the early, we won’t go as far back as like early internet, we’ll just go with the creation of social media. Like, their intention when creating things like Facebook and Zanga and MySpace and >> Zanga, >> all the all all the that existed was not to data hoarde. It was it was it was to build connections, to make a graph. I mean I think Zuckerberg’s intention was to get laid. >> Yes, it was. And so like what what happened was because of the infrastructure of the internet, how it works, centralized servers, data, access to these things, administration of these things and then serving out to like clients like our phones and stuff, you had this this a mass incredible aggregation of data because people were just signing up and handing over all this stuff in order for the graph to work appropriately and for them to do a their discoverability and for administrative to build new features to make it more fun and useful and have them keep coming back and get like some type of consistently with people using the platform and and growth. So as that growth happened over time, they event they eventually realized like, “Holy we have this treasure trove of data that we can then use to sell ads in a very specific way to manipulate people given opinions to understand groups dynamics all this type of stuff because of the infrastructure of the internet and their ability to just try and grow it.” The intention in my opinion was not there initially to manipulate these people. It came as a side effect of the way the internet works. And a lot of our goals in blockchain, web 3, crypto, at least when you look at the underlying infrastructure, the ideology of the people who started doing this is to make a better internet such that the emergent phenomenon isn’t aggregation of data and then manipulation of people through it. That’s just something that they did because it turned out you’re an AI bot. I don’t know why people keep stopping by the the stream and say, “Is this an AI stream?” Like, if you can’t use your own, right, >> everybody’s saying this about you, bro. They’re saying you’re an AI bot. The top guy is AI bot. I’m sure of it. >> Sure. Look at this. I mean, I come maybe I come off as a AI guy. >> I guess it’s AI. They are not responding. Like, >> we’re trying to have a conversation, guys. We’re going to open it up to talk to you guys. >> I don’t know what these people are expecting. Are they just waiting for like >> obese people who don’t have a job or children and they’re living off of social services from the government and they’re doing nothing with their lives and they’re just doom scrolling until they hit us. Some of these people hold let me help you out there. Marty Jr. >> like this Marty guy this piece as Hold up. Wait, wait. No, we’re getting trolled, guys. We can’t We’re getting hooked. >> All right. Clip that. By the way, we’re getting We’re getting hooked in. We’re getting hooked into these. Can’t get hooked into the internet. Just let them internet. That’s what they’re going to do. >> Internet. You can’t ignore the comments, dude. >> Yeah. And Corey might be an AI bot. He might be one of the very first. >> Yeah, >> I’m a good AI bot. I’m an AI bot, man. I want to I want to get access to me. >> Listen to the inflections. >> I don’t. >> You want access to me? >> No. No, my API. >> Nope. >> You don’t want any Jesse rappers out there. >> I’ll give you so many tokens. Tokens all over you. >> Yeah. >> Just shower you with tokens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. We’re going to do another pause for the cause again. We know there’s not a lot of you guys listening. But anyways, like for those of you that are here and you want to join the Discord, uh we have conversations at depth like this all the time. >> Put it put it in the description. Stop that. >> What? I don’t say join the discord. >> Yeah, we’ve got to say we got to do the things. It’s what the internet likes. The internet likes. I don’t care what the internet likes. The internet likes to call me AI. They can go themselves. >> Okay. Well, guys, if you want to if you want to talk to the Corey bot, >> I’ll tell you what, I don’t want people coming in the Discord who are just going to sit there and say, “Is this AI moving on?” Like, if if you’re not if you’re not real, don’t join. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like, be real. Join us. Yeah. But uh I guess one thing also to clear up is like you know if you’re used to how crypto shows are supposed to go when what I say that is if you were go to look at mainstream crypto shows now you’d see a lot of dudes probably antics and they’re like oh we’re going to say all this stuff and then tie it to the price right and that is stupid >> put a random chart up when we’re talking and see how that works. >> It probably work pretty damn good but we don’t do that. Um, the reason we don’t talk price is because that is a very shallow conversation and people will believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to tying in. >> Stick around. I’m going to put a chart up that has nothing to do with anything and we’re just going to talk like we normally do but with the chart there. >> This is going to be a good experiment. >> I’m going to draw stick figures of all these people who leave comments that are dumb. >> Sounds kind of fun. >> Crypto crypto charts. I’m going to put crypto charts as that’s what I’m googling. you >> market caps cryptocurrency prices live cryptocurrency price first one >> let’s look at Tron that’s still here >> all right >> oh boy there’s >> guess it doesn’t forget there’s uh anyways sorry we’re going to get back to that conversation so guys we’re not the typical crypto show we’re not going to tell you like hey buy hashtag or buy dollar sign VDB token and And it’s going to the moon, baby. Uh, what are we doing now? Oh, okay. We’re just going to put a chart up to see. >> It’s a chart. The chart. >> See what happens. >> Uh, nobody can talk about it. It’s not >> Waka waka, I guess. >> Oh, Jess is going to draw. >> They don’t put it over everything. >> Yeah, man. Nobody gets us. >> Got to see her face. >> 937. This is you. This is you. >> This is you. >> This is gonna be so awful. Everybody listen just listens to us. >> Yeah. On on your bed. >> Did you just listen to the show on Spotify? >> He’s just standing in your room. >> Who comes in >> and then is your parent actually said something relevant. How about that? Like that’s >> Hey man, we’re actually going to reply to you >> to sleep. >> There you go. You winning yet, son? You winning it, son? Holy Phillips missed just the headers with D and Jesse. Interesting. >> You know, Phillips, we missed that, too. Um, but I’ll tell you that. >> Yeah, I’ll tell you why that ended actually, Phillips. Um, it’s because when we were doing the mainstream news back then, and back then we had a lot of uh a lot of articles we were going through to to present you guys with those like mainstream topics. It got very mundane. It was always the same stuff. A hack there, a regulation there. >> Huh? >> It’s always been the same stuff. What’s that mean with the astronaut? Like the gun? It’s always been the same stuff, right? It was a hack there, a regulation there, a gleam of technical news that really doesn’t wasn’t depth enough to kind of help anyone, right? And we just got bored, right, Jess? It was like it got to a point where we were like, man, this is just kind of boring now. >> I was definitely very bored because putting together some news articles to read off of for an hour >> and good conversation. >> Yeah. So, >> we would bring it back if it were worthwhile, but it’s not, right? So, moving on. All right. Right. So, we had this great debate about exits. Obviously, it was a shitty question, right? So, we’re going to we’re going to turn away from that debate about exiting from the system. And uh let’s start with a different conversation to close this out. I was like for for this and it it has helped to try to think about this like what does so actually we’ve already touched on it. What winning would look like for crypto? Let’s throw quotations on crypto. And it is a world that you kind of explained, Jesse, where we don’t have to subscribe to seven different subscription services to watch football. Like you used to just be able to watch football. It was great, right? You know, like if your team wasn’t playing in that region, you just couldn’t watch your team that day. And it is what it is, right? You you listen to your team or something, right? But like now we had to have just this week alone seven subscription services, which would amount to 140 bucks. >> But that has nothing to do with crypto, right? No, but you said like we can build tools that would you know you said something about what was it re no you said you said something specific DBrid dbrid >> yeah so dbrid services have nothing to do with crypto the only connection you could possibly make is that you can pay for the annual subscription fee in crypto that’s it >> not using crypto at all >> yeah is it decentralized >> under the hood it’s I don’t even think it’s decentralized it’s not even federated So, it’s just a centralized CDN that’s just scraping the internet for you. >> First video on a Google search says don’t use DBR services if you care about privacy. >> Yeah, like I’m sure they’re like they’re collecting logs. They’re not like a VPN like Mulvad or whatever that’s going to dump them. >> It’s like it’s like an anti- privacy VPN. It’s a data hoarding VPN. >> Yeah. But yeah, >> I mean I like I think it’s good. There’s a lot of room for what good what what good is, what good adoption is, or what happens that’s like justifies um us saying we’ve won or like we’ve made good strides in crypto. some of it’s already happened and like I would argue that the exposure to everyone could get access to buying and selling crypto in all of its ridiculous glory of all the and all the real projects and all the fake projects and everything has taught a lot of young people and older people who have never had access to like exposure to this type of thing. A lot of lessons on how to deal with their money, how to think about money. Like we don’t get financial education, at least here in the States, very well. And so the concept of like a wealthy man’s concept of money is what is my money doing for me? How do I allocate it in such a way where it’s working while I’m not >> done for? And >> I experienced in real time a lot of people during the ICO boom and starting to manage crypto portfolios, young people start thinking this way in a in a real way where they’re like, I am actively reallocating my portfolio so that it’s growing the best the best I think it can. And just that training, that mindset, that mentality of like how do I put my funds into different things such that I don’t have to work for the rest of my life just to live is a really good experience. That’s a good culture. That’s a good lesson to give people. It’s like that alone just to like because the technology was able to give people that exposure. That’s a win in my book because it taught a lot of young people how to think about money appropriately. >> But you could get that from playing an MMO. >> Not really. Not the same. >> Yeah, you could. The stake isn’t there. The stake is not there. >> The stake like the real something something at stake is not there. >> We’re going to get an applause for that. >> What do you mean? >> I get it. Like the dynamics are there, but there’s nothing at stake. There’s no real I can’t in the same level take that money and pay my grocery bills with it. I can’t get out of debt with that. >> You’re just not good enough then. It’s a skill issue >> at MMO. >> Yeah. >> I mean, you’re talking about a grind right there. I’m talking about I’m talking about like the amount of skills you need. Like for instance, if you >> if you could be uh if you if you at the peak of Runescape or World of Warcraft, if you were able to automate and run the bots like at the scale that you needed to to make a decent living, you could be a principal engineer at Amazon or any fang company, right? I get what you’re saying. The amount of skills that you need different levels of like required skills. I’m just thinking about financial education. That alone simple thing of like no that’s like I need to learn a bunch of skills to then make bots to do a bunch of stuff in this esoteric world >> to then earn a living versus I’m I’m I’m allocating the my hard-earned money or a portion of it into a portfolio such that that portfolio grows >> and I reallocate modern based on entries and exits. >> Yeah, you’re absolutely wrong. Like go to any Counter-Strike Discord server. Like there there are little kids that are 8 to 12 year old to 12 years old and adults >> that you know they have like a 20 that they got for Christmas and turn it into $100, >> right? So like I don’t think you you never went there. No, I never >> Every video game has a black market where you can >> I have experienced that Diablo for a real auction house, real money auction house. >> It’s a It’s at a scale that you don’t even understand. Like you can make tens of thousands of dollars a month if you’re actually good. >> If you’re not the market, just the market, >> not the game >> at creating at creating the market for the game. And you create a black market for the game. >> You need to be good at the game. >> Another another game is uh what is another way? It’s a four-letter word, Rust. That one, that one also has a vibrant market. They use Litecoin for settlement. And they they get past gambling uh laws by using the in-game Rust skins as collateral during gamble, like bets. So, like again, it’s because you don’t know enough, right? It’s a skill issue. >> Yeah. There’s there’s a lot about gaming and the internet that is a is a path I am not willing to go down. Like I know >> I mean it’s not just gaming. It’s there’s there’s like >> here’s the question on that Jesse because you you’ve lived in that world quite a bit. Are people playing the game? >> Are these is is it is it differentiated or just people are playing the market and like the game is is just basically superolous at this point. >> So depending on the player population like for instance Runescape got to a point where it became like hyper financialization where nobody really plays the game now. they just play the markets and you there’s still like I can’t remember I think Jagex introduced a a a change that was pretty big but and destroyed the the way that people were hoarding money in game. So there there in 2001, Runescape had a holiday event that introduced a rare like a set of rare rare items like ultra rare like party hats, Santa hats, Christmas crackers, and they were worth thousands of dollars. And in the few years after that event had happened, people realize that uh for instance, there’s an in-game money limit in terms of how much Runescape gold you can uh you can hold before you max out. So people used to stack rare items in order to aggregate like larger amounts of money than the gold cap. >> Yeah, exactly. It’s literally like that. And so then like again, every game has similar dynamics, but there’s a way to launder money in every game and a lot of it. >> Okay, then here’s the next question. >> They are very familiar with this across games. >> Do you think gaming could have done it at the level that crypto did it has done it? the exposure that that that crypto has the world at this type of concept. Could gaming have done that? >> I don’t think so. >> I don’t know. I would say it’s it’s it’s not the same dynamic for sure, but in terms yelled at me for saying that it was different. >> It’s it’s very similar. Like for instance, I’ll give you an example. A like uh A had uh um little miniame, right? Remember the mini game with NFTTS that people were lending them out? Anyway, there was they created a whole app chain, right, for this whole ecosystem that essentially is like one of these MMOs, right? There’s a centralized database, which is essentially how they were running that app chain for a little collectibles and people would invest in those, right? like there were like if the the moment you see click farms like emerge in Malaysia and like Southeast Asian countries that’s when you know like there’s enough money to be made for people whose incomes are you know much lower but still reasonably high to be able to profit from a game. If you can scale up the automation required to automate those what what those people are doing manually because these people only need like you know >> mechanical turret situation. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> Is it is it good for them? Is it good for those people? >> It depends. It depends because sometimes it it seems like they get they get stuck in the niche, right? They don’t learn any real skills. They just like the people who don’t automate things, the people who are just tapping on the screens, they’re useless to society in a few years, right? They get phased out. So they haven’t learned anything. >> It’s not a transferable skill. They’re not growing as an individual. >> Correct. But the people who are able to automate things, they are. So it just depends, right? >> Where this conversation >> and this is just gaming. This is this is there’s so many other niches that I didn’t even know about. like people hack uh musicians laptops. Like that was one that Ahmad, you know, put in, you know, in front of me. And I didn’t know that there was a a vibrant market for stolen musicians music. Like I didn’t know that. >> Like like a track from Lil Uzi Vert can go for tens of thousands of dollars. Didn’t know that. >> So what I’m saying is like >> there are there are different dynamics that you can get exposed to if you have a computer and a connection to the internet that mimic the financial games that are being played with blockchains. >> In some cases, even you said it yourself, they leverage blockchains to do it, >> right? Exactly. Yeah. >> Like Litecoin being a settlement layer for Rust >> for the Rust gambling platform. Yeah. With like 70,000 players and it’s ran out by some 19-year-old kid in some, I don’t know, bum Mediterranean country. >> What a weird world. Yeah, he pulls out like 40 50k a month >> in US dollars. So, it’s like it’s there’s internet’s a really strange place. >> The depths of that you have to go through to actually like live that way, right? Or like how do you report that? >> How do you say like where he lives? He’s not reporting anything. >> Yeah. Like it’s just like you it’s it’s a it’s a And so that’s what’s tough is that Yeah, crypto can and will absolutely um what’s the word I’m looking for? Uh it can and it will >> Don’t say revolutionize. >> No, not revolutionize. >> All right, good. We We never get to use that word. How about that? We We will never use that word on the show. >> I’m so tired of hearing it. >> I can’t even think of the word I’m looking for. I’m all holidayed out right now. My brain is a fog of >> happy new year. Cookito, eggnog, and holiday food. Uh, but crypto will um not help, it’ll help, it’ll bolster those markets. It’ll help them exist. It’ll grease the wheels. Leverage. We’ll say leverage. It’ll help them grease the wheels of getting their money in and out of actual fiat. >> Facilitate. There we go. That’s the right word. Facilitate. Clip that. All right. I just like saying it. >> There’s so many shitty clips. You never know, man. Sometimes I launch like shorts and they’ll get like a thousand views and I’m like, really? That they didn’t even say anything. There’s no telling what people like. But it’s going to facilitate those dark markets, right? But the majority of people don’t want to get anywhere near that though. >> Like all that they wouldn’t want to. It’s not that they wouldn’t want to. It’s they can’t. They’re too dumb to they like that’s the equivalent of minmax in a video. too. >> Most people don’t actually understand how to get good at any games. That’s the problem. >> But I’m not talking about just games. I’m talking about like >> No, no, everything is a game. I mean in an abstract sense, right? >> Game theory. Like >> just game theory in general. Like for instance, if I want to get good at a thing, >> I will get far better than the average person in terms of skill at that thing. I’m just like that kind of person, right? Like there are other people that are way better than me, right? that put me like to shame in terms of how how how autistic I think I can get about a certain topic. Right? >> So, funny enough, >> funny enough, that book that I recommended to you guys that I’m reading uh called the maniac about John Vonoman is literally John Vonman literally invented theory. >> Um his book on economics like coined the term >> and like how people make decisions. He made it and then that then turned into a whole idea of like mechanism design and game theory >> and it’s fascinating. >> Interesting. I’ll I’ll take a read. >> Uh John Nash was No, he didn’t invent it. He just made >> Nash was Nash equilibrium. He was an economist that >> Yeah. um like took it took what V von Noyman started and ran with it in a in an e economic economics perspective that then got translated back into like a general general game theory. >> You know, I only know one way to get good at games, Jesse, and that’s the old John Claude Vanam style. You go into you kick the tree until you break it and not your leg. >> That’s it. >> I’m a I’m a theoretician. I I I explore the landscape first. understand like the best people put in the work. >> Yeah. Hit the trees, baby. You need you can just hit the tree, right? But if hitting the tree isn’t the best strategy to learn, then you’re going to end up spending too much time hitting trees and not getting anywhere while someone who understands the right path to take gets there so much faster. >> Right. Is that a tree hitting noise? What is that? >> It’s supposed to be. I don’t even hear it on my system. >> I heard it a few times. >> Like a little bit. kick the tree. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. Uh, well, I we were just into some good conversation, but we got to wrap this >> We gota wrap this on up, right? >> Join us next time. >> Yeah. So, you know, against the old narrative, adoption is the only thing that matters. Crypto is not here to save everyone, right? Um, it’s just this new tech that and this new money and this new currency system. It’s another game to play. Another thing that humans made that we’re all trying to get good at. >> Tooling for games. I think I think it’s better I think you can better better put to be it’s it’s it’s a lot more tooling to make games. >> Yeah. >> Sure. However you want to think about >> some people are going hard body on it and and I guess >> some people are going hard body on it and I guess they’re winning. I guess he could take like I hate to say this, but like you know Trump has tripled his his net value and this is solely due to crypto since he >> a good portion of the the profits he’s learned since being in the administration has been due to crypto. >> It’s crypto >> and manipulation of people leveraging crypto. >> Yep. He gets a bunch of people to buy a memecoin and he dumps on them and he does it over and over and over and over again. And I don’t but it is what it is, right? keep on doing >> but to to tease some next p and so if you here I’ll throw this up there again so you guys you can join the discord and you can use our bot and we have a bot show ideas and you can also recommend people we can go out and interview uh all kinds of things um but like we some so some next possible episodes I’ll leave it here and you can leave a comment on which route you kind of want us to take right um and we’ll try and go that route with the conversation uh there so there’s like next possible episode teasers here. I’m just reading off my notes is like, hey, there’s privacy user experience versus mass usability, right? That’s a good that’s a good conversation to have, right? Like, you know, and then crypto as civil resistance infrastructure. Ooh, it’s tantalizing. >> Okay, I can I can remember that one. >> We can especially in the world of AI. That’s going to be an interesting one. >> All right. Why narratives always lag reality? What’s the newest crypto narrative? Oh, yeah. Privacy. It’s a new thing. Everybody’s on that privacy kick. Um, and here’s one, Corey, you probably. Can privacy ever be reintroduced once lost? >> Uh, yeah, >> it can be. >> I mean, it depends. >> People know what my dingling looks like. Once again, I’ll give you the same I’m gonna give you the same professor answer. I’m gonna give everything. It depends. You can’t unnip a nip like once the privacy of your nips is out there. >> Okay. But like I’m saying like can an individual it depends. Let me say it depends. People can gain privacy on new things. But yes, once once a piece of information has been leaked, it can’t be unaked. It’s out. >> Yep. Uh, so if you need to depend on the privacy of the information from then on out, no. But like you can start fresh with new things and be private with those new things and people can change. Can’t change your nips. I guess you can, but like you know, no one’s going to do that. >> Here, I made this diagram for exactly when uh this topic would pop up again. >> You a diagram? Yeah, I made a diagram. Oh, >> this diagram right here. >> Why so fuzzy? Oh, there we go. So, everything that isn’t secret is going to get leaked. If something is secret, then only you know about it, right? >> Oh. Can’t be leaked >> by someone else, right? >> Correct. Unless you, you know, unless your gets hacked. >> Yeah. >> But like, yeah. So like anything that’s private or public, you’re basically relying on trusting somebody else for that information to not be leaked. And the landscape of that trust is different based on >> there one more time. >> Who you’re sharing it with, >> etc. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Chill, chill, deep. >> I’ll send you the picture later. >> That’s good. I like that. It’s a good discrepancy to make because like that that difference between like what information like how something is shared with others and who it’s shared with has a lot to do with the the the the attack surface that could leak it. So secret means no one has it. And by the way D now because you did that people might have that old stream key >> but it’s got it’s a one and done thing right? It’s a one and done. >> Yeah, it’s nice that it’s a one and done, but I’m just saying like for future reference like Joan don’t click >> Well, I I thought you were gonna leave it up there. My bad. >> No, no, no. Yeah. >> Um, so shout outs. Uh, some shout outs, wrap this episode up. Thank you guys for listening to this episode. Um, >> who’s that? Oh, your neighbor. >> Shout out to Zoe Sana. >> I said Shame, not Shane. Oh. Oh, thought you said Shane. Shout out to Zoe Sana. Um, old neck, wide smile. Uh, we I really really look forward to seeing the new Avatar movie. I’m actually boosted for it. I watched the second Avatar movie. >> Boosted two days ago. >> Yeah. Boosted. Like you get boosted to see something now. >> Does that mean you’re Is that like a euphemism for being rock hard? >> Not at all, man. I’m a I’m an adult. Like I’m a grown mature man. >> You are not a mature man. I’m a I’m a very mature man. I have things that that that equal maturity >> and um >> I really look forward to the new movie. >> Oh, Instagram disconnects the stream after one hour. So, those are gone. >> Oh, multiple mortgages. We’ll say we’ll throw that. Multiple mortgages. We’ll throw that out there. Kids stuff. >> Uh life insurance, living will. Soon to have a trust. Like I’m a mature man. I do things right. Um, anyway, sorry. Shout out to Zoe Sana and shout out to my beautiful wife, my beautiful and loving wife and my kids, right? We love I love you guys. >> We got five followers on Instagram for that. >> Nice >> word. Nice. >> Don’t Don’t give the numbers out. We’re Don’t Don’t let people know the numbers. >> I’m let one. I’m transparent. >> And lastly, shout out to Ahmad. We miss you, bro. We wish you would come back and hang out with us, but we know it’s not really in your agenda to hang out with us as much as you were hanging out with us. But maybe one day we’ll get back on your radar cuz we miss that haircut almost as much as we miss you. And that’s coming from the heart. Uh, that’s it. Play the outro. Wait, is it not going to play automatically? Did y’all >> No. No. Not this one. >> Did you do that? >> I don’t think it says the outro. Oh, no. No. It is gonna play now.