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Bitcoin drops, ZCash pops, Synthetic stables lose their peg.
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music. >> It’s a Bitcoin contest. The only one that’s making your money. You listen to the Bitcoin market. So hold on. Listen to the Bitcoin. Hey, welcome back to Bob Big. I got Bob Bitcoin podcast. Uh, this season 2 episode nine, the great unpegoning. It slipped out. Uh, I’m the host that talks first, D. >> I am another host, Dr. Corey Petty. >> He talks second. >> And I’m the third host, Jesse. >> Yes, Jesse is staring at pictures of Mars right now. Yep. I am saying >> something. >> Jesse, I have to say this. I greatly appreciate that you’re bringing the hair back, bro. I greatly appreciate it. Like, I’m very appreciative. What’s What’s the imp what’s the impetus for it? >> I I I don’t have to go to Argentina, so I usually every time I have to leave the house, I get a haircut. >> So, if I have to go to any event, I cut my hair. If I don’t have to go anywhere, I don’t care. >> Yeah. Yeah, but like why though? Like >> I get that >> your hair looks good when it’s long. >> Yeah. I mean it’s okay. Yeah. >> It’s just less effort. Like you have to understand me. I am lazy at my core. I only do things that are interesting or somebody challenges me to do it and you know it’s interesting. >> But you won’t not cut your hair. >> No. How do I know? >> No. That Yeah. That’s not how that works. >> Can’t bait me. Yeah, >> that’s how it works. Anyways, guys, welcome back to the Bitcoin podcast where we sometimes talk about Bitcoin, but we mostly just podcast. Uh, it’s good to have you guys back in. >> Uh, Corey, good to have you back. How you doing? >> I’m good. I’m relaxed. I went to Hawaii. Sat on the beach for a while. >> Chilled somewhere. Hawaii’s >> nice. It’s pretty. >> How many times did you hear that song on the island? Not once. >> Really? >> No. >> That’s all they do. >> Oh, did you eat the chicken the the pig skin? The crispy the like >> it just melts in your mouth, dude. >> Did it all, man. >> Like, oh, so good. >> It’s good stuff. >> Did you serve? >> No, we didn’t do like like I didn’t If I say I did it all, I didn’t do anything. I just sat there and drank and ate delicious foods. >> Very nice. Very nice. went to the peak of uh I think it’s like Halakana or something that whatever the summit is on Maui. >> Yeah. >> And like it’s like 10,000 feet and it’s absurd. We watch the sun go down and then did like some stargazing up there cuz like there’s no atmosphere so you see all the stars. >> It’s all a Milky Way. That was dope. But uh >> Do you see any lava? >> No, it’s not an active volcano. Oh, >> okay. right now. >> I did help you in an argument with your wife. So, that was >> You did. You did. So, for the listeners, I said something like, um, I forgot who we were talking about. Oh, it’s like this. It’s like a old lady cuz like it’s we we on a time share and I’m 40 and so it’s like us at a time share with a bunch of like 75 plus people because they’re the ones that get locked in time shares. Um, and me and uh, one lady was just like fit as a fiddle. Like I was like, “Wow, man. She just built like a brick house.” Like surprised at how well how fit this older lady was. Aaron’s like, “That’s not a phrase.” I was like, “That’s most definitely a phrase.” She’s like, “Well, it’s not a nice phrase.” I was like, “It means she’s hot.” She’s like, “No, it doesn’t.” So, >> it does though. >> It does, though. So, we went. So I asked D or Aaron asked D, one of us did, I forget who and our other buddy Tom and it turned into a very long researched discussion on whether or not it is a phrase and it is by is most definitely a phrase. So for those of you out there who’d like to know, you could say she’s built like a brick shed house or >> yeah, >> he’s built like a brickshed house, meaning that they are very fit and strong. >> Yeah. And >> attractive men or women. >> Yeah. So that’s how that went. Um, I wouldn’t necessarily say that because dudu and looking good don’t go hand in hand. >> It rolls off the tongue nicely. It’s a It is a It is a It’s a It’s It’s pleasing to say. >> Yeah. And it is kind of the impetus for the brick the Commodores she’s a brick house song. >> Yeah. >> They purposely left that part out and then they went house cuz it’s supposed to be brick house. But anyways, we’re going to talk about some crypto stuff. There there was a hacking. A balancer was hacked or balancer was hacked. Not a balancer, a balancer was hacked. Um, so people lost money and they’re not going to get it back and there’s nothing anybody can do. But hopefully it was a white hat hacker and they’re going to be like, “Hey, gotcha. >> Here’s your money back. Do better.” No, it’s not. >> Okay. It’s a black hat hacker, an evil person. Uh, probably a child. No, I’m said a lot of hackers are little babies founding that out like little kids. They got nothing better to do and sift through the cyber waves. But anyways, uh Balancer was hacked. What’s balancer do, Jess? They balance things. >> Uh it’s a DEX, right? >> Yeah. >> Decentralized finance protocol. Balancer. >> Have you ever used it? >> Me? No. >> Uh no, maybe. Is it automatically built into some things like the the uh >> I’d imagine it’s built into a bunch of things? >> No, but like so like like what do you guys use for DEX swapping stuff? >> Un swap? >> Probably like Coinbase wallet. I just push the button and it’s like gathering swap >> or if depending like if it’s if it’s built into a wallet and I’ll usually use that depending on where I’m doing like what I’m doing. I guess this kind of depends on what I’m doing on what I end up using. But if it’s just like a simple swap, if it’s not built into the wallet I’m using, >> then I’ll go to unis swap. >> That’s a good one, too. >> You guys don’t do like twaps. >> No, >> you what? >> What’s twaps? Why? Why do you use twaps? >> So, you can say that because it’s a very fun thing to say. >> What are twaps? >> I use twaps. >> When you go to Thailand, there’s a bunch of No, I’m just kidding. >> Uh time weighted. No, no. Time weighted average. uh purchase. Yeah. >> Where do you >> It’s like a way to dollar cost average and you could do that on certain decks. >> I use Tw >> Yeah, >> I don’t I don’t use the blockchain much. My like I I I still practice Hodddle Plus. I’m not doing a bunch of stuff unless I have to. >> And so most of my moves are usually slow accumulation. >> I haven’t claimed my chicken eggs in like six months. I forgot all about it. >> I sold all mine. I sold everything. I wanted to sell it all, but nobody wants to buy it all. So, >> I sold it on the cheap the liquidation event. I think I did. I don’t know. Maybe it’s still there for sale. I haven’t checked. I just put it for sale and for cheap and left. >> Yeah, I’m not a mad I’m not I I realized this, Corey, after um months sometimes like talking to Jesse. Just Jesse is a very avid blockchainer. He’s way more blockchainy than we are. I think he’s very active. like he should just use >> he’s getting that. >> Yeah, if you need to use the things. I’m more interested in how it works and like thinking about it and building like I I’m way more interested in like the deeper deeper infrastructure and like so I never really think or spend time in user space if you will. Most of the things that I think about building or are interesting are like only touched by other developers. But the thing is is that the reason why I don’t use the things is because this is now my I don’t know sixth, seventh cycle at this point. It’s got to be that like maybe five is calling it a lot. There’s not that many happenings. Maybe five. Um this is what we just started the show talking about like the balancer hack. Like there’s like when I was messing around with Algarand doing everything right, pushing all the right buttons according to them and then it’s just like oh surprise they didn’t build it right so somebody else took all your money and I’m like well how would I have known that? I don’t how would I have known that they built it right or wrong? I’m just a guy trying to do things >> yeah like Algarand. I had quite a bit of Algorand. I was like yeah I’m going just hold on to this for a while. Oh, I’ll participate in the votes and the governance and stuff. And then it was like, “Oh, surprise. You got hacked for participating in the governance like you were supposed to.” And I was like, “What? >> That did happen with my Algrand wallet.” >> No, >> it did happen. That is what happened. >> There was no There was no hack on governance. No. >> Yes. The governance contract that was signed by people let the hacker know who was using that wallet. >> There’s a wallet. >> I haven’t even looked that up. Tiny man collapsed which was the decks on Algarand similar >> wallet had a bug too >> the wall the my Algarand wallet >> had a massive bug and they stored people’s passwords in like plain text or something >> I remember that I remember that the same >> and whoever yeah whoever participated in governance the dude saw it and then went and saw like oh there’s your password cool I’m taking your money and I was like damn this is the wallet like that the foundation >> the foundation was like this is the wallet you use. >> You know what I think happened? I think they they third partied that wallet because they I think I think the foundation didn’t really actually do a lot of development except on the core protocol directly and even the wallet I think they third partied that to the people doing our brand thing >> that was them like going hey we didn’t build that we just told you to use it all right we did not >> I didn’t make that burger >> our brand >> but when I went it was a tasty burger >> and so that’s why I don’t do the things cuz like I’m not trying to click a click and lose my >> I know it works. All my money say all my money sticks and things that are safe. >> Yep. >> I was I was saying this before uh I think we started >> balancer balancer’s old but it still was compromised, right? >> It’s a rounding error. >> A rounding error. They got Oh my god, that’s terrible. >> It was a V2, right? It was in balance V2, not V3. >> Yeah, >> there was still some people who didn’t migrate liquidity from V2 to V3. See, I would hate to have a role where rounding could get you fired or something. Like rounding has never been a consequential thing for me ever. Like even in school, you know, teachers are like, “Hey, you can round or not just as long as you’re in the ballpark.” I was like, “Oh, okay, cool.” And then you get in science class and they’re like, “Round to the thousandth, right?” But nothing’s going to happen bad. But like I would hate to have a job where I didn’t round to like the 10,000th and everybody lost billions of dollars and now they’re >> same issue happened to Tiny Man that it was a rounding error that allowed a hacker to drain the liquidity pools the pairs. >> I think stupid problem to have. >> Yeah, >> it’s a stupid problem to have. >> You think maybe that’s why banks don’t with anything past the penny? They’re just like we with that. >> I mean office space. >> I I don’t know. This is This is the office space >> into talking about office space. We talked about that last week. >> This is the plot. This is the plot to office space. This is what they do. And then they just move the decimal wrong. Ended up getting way too much money too fast. >> This is um >> that’s when I start telling new people that ask me about crypto. Um they’re going to say, “Hey, like so what’s it about?” I’m going be like, “Well, it’s just a giant group of people all trying to office space. They’re trying to make a thing to recreate the office space with but also say like decentralization a lot. >> Yeah. They’re going to say a lot of words but in reality they’re trying to make a thing to get you to click a button to get a transaction fee that goes into a wallet. >> I mean what do you expect like the whole industry it’s about exploring with money. It’s like they’re trying to like you know reimagine finance and generalize the idea of moving money and creating money and ideas of value. Of course we’re gonna >> up and it’s going to cost a bunch of money. >> Of course it is. >> I get it. I do I do get it. I I I I understand it and it is kind of cool when it clicks. Like I think uh I think our buddy Joe is in on one this block swap thing. Looks like people like swap and >> block swap. >> Block swap. >> Who says swap? >> Saying it wrong. Block swap. >> Who says who says swap? >> Block swap. Like blap. >> Oh, that makes a lot more sense. >> BLOCKS wet ass >> I’m sorry, Joe. I’m so sorry. I thought it was block swap. >> Um, I’ve told people in real life swap. >> I’m only calling it that from now on. >> Block swap. >> Somebody Hold up. Chat, clip that. Nobody’s watching, but chat, clip that. >> There are zero watchers right now. Um, well, if you didn’t know there was a bouncer hack, you know, now, uh, there’s also some other things going on. Web three. Oh, I’m going to try to use a teleprompter. Let’s see how this looks. Uh, the Web3 foundation paper on Reed Solomon proximity gaps in >> their eyeballs are just all over the place. >> They were Hold on. Let me see if I can >> hold Let me put Web 3 Foundation paper on Reed solemn. It’s hard to not. >> You’re all over the place. >> That’s really how they expect you to read a teleprompter and not have your eyes move. That’s a tough >> Just use the Nvidia thing that keeps your eyes looking at the webcam. >> That’s creepy as >> We tried that, remember? And everybody was creeping. They were like, >> Jesse, what is this web three foundation paper? >> Uh, I think it impacts the security of Starkware and it it it was old. It was like a something to do with like the bits of security. uh conjecture was not uh it was there were less bits of security than they claimed but I think they’ve gone through some upgrade in the last couple of years that they’re aiming for a higher level of bits of security so this doesn’t matter and it’s like a very minor uh impact and it’s like almost negligible but it was nonetheless something that for people who aren’t cryptographers myself included people thought that this impact like had a significant impact on fry based uh systems. Um yeah, I don’t know. >> But not oven roasted systems though. >> No. No. Air fried and oven roast and we’re okay. Yeah. >> So hold up. I’m >> This is why things don’t work. D things you don’t understand at the base happening. >> I mean I don’t understand it either. like you were like a lot of people who have been in this space for a long time. Even Sebastian was like, “I need to read this.” Does anybody Does anybody understand the ramifications of this and he was asking, >> “Dude, if a named Sebastian doesn’t know, you know you’re in trouble.” Cuz people named Sebastian always knows some I’ve never met a Sebastian that was just like a like a like a lame or an amoeba. They always know >> So by by you just saying like Sebastian didn’t know, I’m like, “Oh Sebastian didn’t know.” Then we’re all screwed >> from Nosis. >> That’s what I’m going to name my LLM Sebastian. It’s definitely going to be >> Everybody will think that you are the authority on everything. >> Whenever I make an LLM, it’s Sebastian. >> I’m just asking you guys this question. Do you besides the Sebastian you just said, do you know a different Sebastian that didn’t know some >> I don’t know any Sebastians. >> Yeah, I don’t know any Seb Sebastians either. >> I may have known one, but I don’t Sebastian. >> Okay. Ken, do you know any Sebastians? >> Yes, I knew one. >> Was he smart? >> Did he Did he know >> Oh, no. He a dunce. >> Yeah, this guy should not be called Sebastian. They should have called him like Sam or something else. I don’t know. It was pretty bad. That’s what you should say to him next time you see him is like, I don’t know why you’re called Sebastian. You’re really living not living up to that name. >> It’s a pretty harsh comp. Like pretty harsh thing to say to somebody. He’s like, you’re really not living up to your namesake. >> That’s pretty crazy. >> You don’t deserve to be called your name. >> If we had to break this down, Reed Solomon, I’m pretty sure that’s some sort of like theory, right? Is that a thing? That’s like a thing. It’s like a math thing. >> Yes. And then proximity gaps conjectures means that somebody is making an educated guess that some some reed Solomon is near some and there’s gaps. >> So read Solomon is a type of eraser coding and uh but it’s not like it’s not read Solomon itself. It’s how it’s applied to specifically Frybased systems which is like a a specific type of polomial commitment scheme from what I understand. And that’s that’s basically as far as I go. There’s so many different types of like ZK uh primitives. There are Starks and Starks. And that’s a that’s a type of Stark, I think. >> Serialis Fry stands for uh Huh. >> Is it like real serial aisle type or they have their own specific? It’s like this this tool is for that. This tool is for this >> serial aisle. >> Yeah. If I want to read Solomon some do I just go down to the read Solomon aisle and there’s different types of read Solomons that I could pick >> different types of like I mean read Solomon can be parameterized. So there’s that but then you have different types of eraser coding across the board and those all have different properties and those all those different things also can be parameterized in different ways. >> So there’s a lot here. So like read Solomon is one thing right that that can be in the context of like CDs you know the error correction when you scratch it and you can still play the song. >> So there there’s like multiple technologies layered together that is Fry. So Fry the acronym I’m just looking this up fast read Solomon IOP of proximity where IOP stands for interactive oracle proof. So interactivity in the context of ZKbased systems is another complex thing in and of itself. So you have read Solomon, you have uh interactive oracle stuff. Uh >> and then there’s there’s probably something else here. Um but like they’re each their own specific topic that you could spend probably like a whole year on if that makes sense. And so these guys are layering it in order to prove computation in Starknet or Sturkware, whatever the it is. I forgot. But yeah, I don’t use it at all. Nobody uses it. >> Read Solomon’s a noun or is it a ver like am I going to read Solomon that? Like is it a verb? Like did you read Solomon? >> I think it’s the last names of the two guys who worked on this eraser coding variant. >> Yeah. So >> not very creatively. I put in I put in uh that’s what happens with with this scientists and developers, engineers, they they label things very blandly. Uh I looked at the real world impact put in AI and so this is what Claude has to say. The real world impact is on ZKVMs. Almost all of the nearly two dozen zero knowledge virtual machines tracked by F-Proofs that group that tracks things assumes these conjectures. So they assume this specific property of root solomon and its application in these systems. Um this suggests widespread vulnerability across the zero knowledge proof ecosystem. So because everyone has built their systems based on this incorrect assumption that that problem the fact that it is an incorrect assumption and there’s a vulnerability there is pervasive across all the systems that have made that assumption. basically and here’s how you fix it. So that’s kind of the the gist of the paper. >> Yeah, there’s some there’s some there’s some real thinkers. >> But that’s how cryptography always works, right? That’s the that’s the whole point. Like that is the natural process of cryptography. You build a system, you assume it has certain properties, you put out in the wild, and then >> it gets gets built and used in various contexts and then that tests those assumptions. In some cases, those assumptions are wrong. So you try to identify those things. You try to identify those things early so you can fix it before an exploit that’s possible from a vulnerability gets exploited. But sometimes you can’t. And that’s kind of the the interesting thing about opening code >> and putting money into systems that are permissionlessly used. And like why Bitcoin is as powerful as it is is because it’s been battle tested like this for so long. So because it’s been the subject of people trying to break it for so long and still holds value, you can have some level of confidence that value is is is is secure because otherwise someone would have broke it by now. And so like open- source systems, especially systems that have value put into them, like cryptocurrency, have that property. They’re they’re risky at first and over time as you put more money in them and it gets battle tested, people try and steal it, it gets more and more stable for the part that doesn’t get broken. >> Yeah. >> Uh but like there’s no promise, right? It’s just it’s it’s as stable as its current timeline and money. >> But we get better and better technology and you have like you said, you play that cat and mouse game. >> That’s what I always appreciated about Bitcoin is that like it works. You know, at least it works. It’s slow. People don’t like it, but it works, you know. And Ethereum is like that, too. Now, I feel like people are like, “Theum is so slow.” >> Ethereum changes a lot, right? They make a lot of upgrades. Like the fact that they moved from proof of work to proof of stake and then making proof of stake better. That’s a huge shift. >> It is just like a fundamental change in the assumptions of how the system works and the security of the properties of that system. But I thought Ethereum more by now though because I thought didn’t they like make it deflationary kind of or like very slowly inflationary when they move like >> it depends. >> Yeah. Like shifts back between it’s just like I don’t know. But anyways, hey it works. Ethereum works. Some of these things just work kind of work. They all like at a point now where like we’re kind of saturated in things that work. >> It’s that it’s that kind of word that you threw in there like salon work. >> That’s the thing. That’s the thing that feel that I actually feel good about like when I get that I don’t my my bank doesn’t kind of hold my money. Like I’m pretty comfortable with them holding my money and it’s going to be there. But I live in the US and I understand that that is not the same everywhere. But um >> I mean yeah put your dollars in the bank and then I guess I guess you could say that works but like the dollar gets devalued right from underneath you. So like does it? >> There’s not enough liquidity right now. If we all withdraw our money there’s going to be like there would be >> They don’t even need to draw how much money we all have. >> They wouldn’t let you take it out. They stopped they stopped letting people withdraw when they think people are going to go bank run. >> You can you can you can order you can like call the bank and then say that I want to withdraw like half a million in cash >> and they’ll put it together, but they’ll also put you through >> unless a thousand people are doing that at the same time. They’re like, “No, bro. Sorry.” >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Bank runs aren’t a thing anymore. They’ll say like, “Hey guys, you can’t get your money out.” They’ll be like, “What do you mean it’s my money?” They’re like funny story. >> No, it’s not. >> You know, all those words at the bottom of all those things you sign. No. Um, but anyways, I don’t know. Well, on to the next thing we got. Uh, Wintermute is suing Binance for ADL >> So, Wintermute is uh Oh, what? We were trying to get them on the show for a long time. They’re not very good at answering their Twitter account >> for us. So, Jesse, I know you wanted to get them on the show for a while because it was I guess tangentual related >> leading algorithmic trading firm. >> When I was when I was working at IF on Codeex, I was trying to figure out who um who are good market makers for um when we uh were going to go into mainet and I was trying to figure out the logistics around that and uh yeah, I did want to talk to them. >> So why why are we talking about them today? Just cuz they’re suing somebody. assuming Binance. >> Uh so that’s actually a rumor that uh ended up being not true, but they did get a significant amount of money liquidated. I think it was like 600 million, something maybe like that. >> Um yeah, what’s his name? The guy who runs Wintermute. >> You know what I’m talking about. >> Yeah. >> Ejy. >> Yeah. Evan Gavoy. This guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> founder and CEO of cryptocurrency marketmaking firm Winterbute has categorically denied online speculation that his company is preparing to sue Binance over alleged losses sustained during the catastrophic market crash of October 10. >> Yeah, he was bitching about it in a podcast though about how the ADL system of Binance was aggressive. Oh yeah. >> The denial came amid viral threads alleging Wintermute had been impacted by Binance’s auto deleveraging ADL mechanism and suffered hundreds of millions of damages. For context, ADL is a safeguard used in leverage trading to manage systemic risk. When extreme market movements deplete the exchanges insurance fund, the ADL system automatically closes or reduces profitable traders positions to offset the losses from liquidated accounts. >> Yeah. Ooh. >> So, so like like you have to realize like when you say infrastructure or you use >> or you use apps in this ecosystem, everything that powers everything is liquidity extraction, >> right? Like that’s all it that the whole industry is just about liquidity extraction. >> So, it’s about liquidity extraction and me is like a huge ass industry. >> Isn’t that finance? Isn’t that just the definition of finance? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like what I’m saying is like people keep building these info project or app apps and at the end of the day like >> these guys pick up all the crumbs and then they essentially trade against you to pull liquidity out of the whole ecosystem, right? That’s that that literally is all we’re doing. And when you buy a token, you either lose it, you lose access to it, it gets hacked, you spend it. Like it just dries up liquidity in the system. And as long as there’s new demand, everything number go up. But at the end of the day, you need me to make all of this financially lucrative to keep our attention focused on it. >> You think how how long does the experiment >> how long does the experiment for non- Bitcoin stuff? Bitcoin stuff is different probably in terms I mean it’s not probably it’s different for sure. It’s a lot of proof of work games, but in proof of stake, >> how long does the um the experiment happen where we’re trying to use this technology for things other than financial stuff, right? Because it seems tough if you >> That’s what I care about. >> I know, but you’re building this really really cool thing, right? But now you got to also think about this financial game that you have to play to build the cool thing that does the cool thing. And it’s it’s strange because >> it’s there’s not a lot of people that are going to be in that game. What I mean by that is um like I have a buddy now who is really into tennis shoes. I’ve never worked with I I have a colleague. He’s really into tennis shoes. I never worked this closely with somebody who’s way into shoes. And I’m just like, “Yeah, but like that’s like that’s a small group of people on the planet that are in shoes. Only y’all.” >> No, it’s pretty big. It’s pretty big. Very big. >> It’s I know it’s big. It’s it’s it’s big in relation, >> but like it’s only sneaker heads that are paying that much for sneakers. Like if this dude, she’s like, “Hey man, here’s this pair of Jordans. This is the retro7s.” I’ll be like, “I’ll give you 700 shoes.” I was like, “Not for me. I’m going to put them on my feet and walk around and that looks like 150 shoe." >> How big how big is big enough? Right? Cuz everything is relative. So like how big is big enough? How many users or how many people in the market have to be in there to cross that threshold of that's a pretty big market for you? >> There's a there's a really good that's actually a great question for like dick size in this question. like how big is big enough? >> Yeah. >> I think there's there's this interesting plot that I saw one time and it's a parabola, >> right? And it's like I think it's a size is the x- axis and skill is the y- axis. And when you ask the question, what's good enough or big enough? It's a combination of size and skill. If you have a really small dick, need a lot of skill. Mhm. >> There's this there's this there's this there's this valley below where it's just it's it's perfect. You don't require any skill at all. It just fits. It works well. And if you're really big, it goes back up. You need a lot of skill. Otherwise, you start hurting things. It's similar to that. I think for like community, you got to get things get things get unwieldy as a community gets too big and the value gets too big. It gets complex, gets hard to control, gets out of hand, breaks up, you have problems. come into play, right? >> They'll drive But if it's too small, like conversation, >> you have to be really serious. It has to be that has to be very it >> there has to be a lot of passion involved with a small community otherwise it just didn't hold together. Uh and so analogy cipher punks have small dicks on that parabola. >> Ah, relatively speaking, probably. But they're real skillful. >> He drops some heat. Like my thing is like this is what I'm saying, Jesse, is like that is a fun game to the people that have fun with it. like that. I know there's a lot of people going to shoe conferences and trading shoes and getting their content and oh this did you see what happened? Uh laser bombs traded uh retro 6 with uh Jeremi 7 and they're like what like what like words you making up. You're doing a good job of like making up words. I think those I think those might be real words. Jod to buy seven and laser bomb are out here straight in shoes and nobody really cares but them and the other people that are in the shoes. So it sucks for someone like you trying to build a real thing. But then you've also now got to play this game with people that don't care about your real thing at all, but they just want to like suck liquidity out of what this real thing can possibly generate. They're over here just like, "Oh, look. Here's another thing to get some liquidity. Let's just suck the liquidity out. Oh, now my thing doesn't work anymore because I had to play this little game over here with people that I really didn't care to play. Like, it's like here's my project, but I have to now make some Jordans, too. And >> that's here's my podcast, but I guess I still have to do clickbait. Like, >> yeah, like it's just to me it seems tough. That's tough to do things other than finance and crypto. >> That's all. I mean it's it's a huge part of it, right? That like that is the reason why you use crypto as part of the solution to a problem. Like for instance, in storage, Bit Torrent works just fine, right? You can pirate movies, music, books, all sharing. >> Yeah, exactly. Now, when you want to store things, you got to pay people because not everybody's altruistic enough to keep seating the latest Superman movie or whatever, right? >> So, you need money, right? You need money to exchange hands. You got to make somebody care if they don't care about the data. You got to make them care some other way. And it's money. >> Exactly. Exactly. So it it it can be whatever. It doesn't have to be storage, right? That's just something that I'm working on. So it's, you know, >> if you're going to ask someone to provide a service that they don't want to do, you got to pay them. >> Yeah. >> Like Bitcoin, it's not like you have an ASIC running it. You would only do it if you're going to get a a block reward, right? Or the chance of getting a block reward. >> Yeah. And I guess that's the other game that's tough because >> providing a service that you don't want to provide the money has to be there there >> it has to it has to work like it has to be >> it has to be a good economy right like a stable economy such that rational actors can play. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> And for blockchain systems because the way they're built we shoot we've decided to shoot ourselves in the foot further and include all the rational actors that can possibly play too. Uh, so it has to be stable with respect to those. >> We had a question from the audience. Psych. This is from Ken asks, "Copy and pasted. Wonder what the organic crypto holder count is compared to sneaker heads." That's actually a good question. There's probably more sneaker heads. >> No. >> Crypto holders. >> No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Now, no. >> There's a lot of people who use crypto every day, dude. A lot globally. >> But how do you would you ever know the number? That's what sucks is you can never know. But you can't you don't know how many people >> you know you a reasonable good proxy. >> Just look at the number of accounts on each blockchain. Now >> that isn't that's going to be an overestimate for in some cases a really significant one because >> an address doesn't equal a person. >> You can do forensics on that based on how the blockchain does transactions and do entity entity analysis to cluster some of that thing. Still going to be an approximation an overestimation. Yeah. >> Uh but like >> you know you know who knows >> even the most conservative ones are >> going to be >> far beyond sneakerheads. >> Yeah. But even Coinbase like I mean even in real finance like real money not real money. I'm sorry that was offensive to me myself. I just even in traditional finance um you know I can have several bank accounts and I can have several bank accounts in the same bank right. So, it's really hard to get to the the real number. >> So, 108 million Coinbase has 108 million verified users. So, there's your there's your concrete points of point of data. >> Probably more than that. >> So, that's just jump off. So, that's just Yeah, there's that's users. So, it's there's obviously going to be more than that. So, that's a good So, it's like >> baseline. How much money does that >> add Coinbase and Binance together, right? So, Binance is 280 million. So 100 say 110 plus 28. >> No, you can't do that because those same people at Binance have accounts at Coinbase, too. So it's like you got to like take a smaller subset. >> Not necessarily. There's an overlap. There's going to be overlap, though. It's not they're not.com and and Binance US are split. You can't even get into Binance with a VPN, right? So it's completely different now. >> Reasonable. >> It used to be different. It used to be you could have a Binance account and a US account, but not anymore. Not for a while, actually. So you can add them. >> Yeah, add it in my account. >> Okay. Okay. So that's 300 and some odd million. >> That's almost the population of the US that owns crypto. >> But that's just two. >> That's just that's just two >> centralized exchanges. >> Think about Gemini. There's a there's a uniquely smaller set of Gemini holders that are not also Coinbase holders. You can add that on there. >> There's a ton of them. >> And you got Bitstamp. You got Bitstamp. But either way, we're already we already answered the question. >> Yeah. Already way more than sneakers. So that's what makes it even more difficult because what were the names that I threw out earlier? There's a lot more of them. Was it Jazz Bomb and who knows? >> Slicky Eights. Um I'm really good at naming sneaker heads. Uh internet tags all day. Yeah. Um, red bottom 32. He's probably There's got to be a red bottom 32 out there somewhere. Trade and choose. >> Um, >> so 78 million is what Chad GBT gives you. Or how many how many crypto users are there in the world? >> Oh, this is good stuff. I wish I could throw this on the screen. We got to find a way to throw Ken's stuff on the screen. So some current estimates according to AAA as of 2024 6.8% 8% of the world's population >> share screen on some form of crypto. >> I'm not sharing my disc. >> No, I mean like for from a production Yeah, that's right. perspective. You can just >> Jesse's right. I could just snip it. Snip. >> I I'll leave your name out of it. Cannip. All right. The little copy pasta. Oh, wait. I have to save it as a thing. Okay. Do that. Do a little bit of that. Throw a little media asset in there. How are we What are we doing here? >> So, how do we even do this now? >> So, like eight eight eight to 10% of the world is using crypto right now. That's that's pretty big. >> Pretty good. And our original tagline of the show is adoption that matters. That's a pretty good That's a pretty good adoption for a technology that just like kind of came out of nowhere over the course of what 12 years, whatever, whatever it's been. >> Yep. >> Yeah. I don't know how to throw it on there anymore. Hold up. Wait. Oh, image file. There we go. Bow. >> 16. >> There we go. Nice. Read audience. >> Get the uh get the get the question out of here. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me get that out of there. >> What is Ken doing? Is he our producer? >> He's got he's got to get his sea legs. Come on now. >> Back there. >> This is round two. >> out. >> Speak up for yourself, Ken. Don't let him talk to you. Like >> Not gonna lie. I was editing some tweets for work, but Bottom line, 500 to 600 million adoption is the only thing that matters. So, it's getting there. It's getting there. All right. On other things, uh, solidity replacement core solidity. >> Yeah, I'm looking at I'm looking at the the um solidity language or solidity.org blog post about this that happened in October 21st. Um, basically it's like the core like they're they're transitioning the language from solidity to what they're calling core solidity to address a number of like long-standing issues with with the language >> which allows it to kind of operate better, be more efficient and better debugging. It says here um for a while now the focus has been primarily on solving the long-standing problems of the IR pipeline. this intermediate representation language. So like it's kind of like it's a compiled language. So it goes from one language to an intermediate representation language then that into bite code. Um so the IR pipeline in order to enable it by default and deprecate legacy EVM pipeline. Another important direction is the implementation of the F debug specification. So how to get debugging information from code. Finally some effort is always needed to support changes to the underlying platform. So like basically just like repositioning the language and making some breaking changes to it. So you when you make such a large breaking changes that then position it to be more suitable for the future. >> They kind of have to do something like this >> and then like inevitably whenever you make something if you're going to choose one breaking change what ends up happening is like all right so we're making this breaking change that's a lot of effort to coordinate and do and and make sure you get done correctly. What else can we shove in here since we're doing it? We don't want to do it like we don't want to keep making breaking changes like this. So if you're going to do it, you just make all the changes at once. So you only have to go through the the labor of managing the breaking change effectively once. >> I can dig it. It's like, hey, let's just go ahead and buy all these Christmas presents in one shot. I'm not trying to be Christmas shopping for the next month. >> For real. Yeah. I'm not trying to go out and fight off parking space >> six times. I'm going to get it all done once. >> We're going to the mall. We're going to get everybody's gifts. It's going to take one day. And I'm done. I'm not done. And then the next day you're wrapping it and I'm gonna watch. >> Watch. >> No. Like my wife loves wrapping presents. So I don't have to wrap them anymore. It's great. >> She loves it. She's like, "Oh, so great. I'll get the wrapping paper. Oh, put some bun. Put a bun. I'm put a little bow on it." I'm like, "All right, do your thing. Put some glitter on. I don't give a as long as I don't have to wrap these damn gifts." >> Lucky you. >> Yeah. And then Oh, >> back. Same thing. Only thing I have to wrap is errands. That's the only thing that that that they do have to do is build the the dude. I hate that. Every year you got build all these damn toys that they're not going to play with for six. Like they're going to completely forget about in about two months, but you got to sit there for hours. Batteries, screws, snaps, putting building all these damn toys. >> I like that. I enjoy putting together toys. I like that part. That's fun. >> I like it. Like when I did not >> Well, the thing that makes it suck is because you just stayed up till like 3:00 in the morning playing Santa Claus and then so you get up at like, you know, 4 hours later >> and I'm just told that's us, son. Sorry. >> Oh, okay. >> I'm just kidding. We didn't mean. >> Sorry, guys. That got deep. And I can take this off the screen. Actually, we're not even talking about that anymore. Um, so anyways, now now we're gonna we're gonna move on. So, Ripple, I don't know why they're still around. Yes, I do. Ripple raised 500 million at a 20 billion valuation. I don't know how that makes sense because they claim they're a blockchain. >> 40 40 I adjusted it. I put a two and it's actually a four. >> Oh, I was looking in the notes here. I'm sorry. Uh 40 billion valuation. So, Ripple Labs got that money. Not Ripple the blockchain, but somehow that some is going to transfer to all these XRP holders. Maybe. >> Man, I guess I have to figure out how Ripple works. Like I've I've avoided it for 12 years. Uh they just do a great job of sticking around. Probably because they just >> it's >> they're lobbying and going after bankers and trying to work with the actual banking industry. >> And because of that, >> they they get this like stamp of legitimacy from the banking industry. had people who think that that's an official approved like some something official. >> I mean, didn't Avalanche try to like Avalanche, Algrand, there's a bunch of alt L1s that tried to go that route, but they all kind of >> whatever Ripple has. >> Ripple's the first Yeah. A lot of money. That's what it has. That's a shitload of money. >> Started it. >> Yeah. Like they're one of the earlier earlier projects that was separated from Bitcoin. Um and from the start because they one of the earlier projects during the mass adoption of crypto and people like all basically all early projects were successful. They were very successful. They got a lot of money. They were not decentralized in any way, shape or form. So they kept all that money and they used it for lobbying purposes to try and pay for legitimacy in my opinion. And it's worked because every time you talk like I'd say about 80% of my, you know, GPP questionnaires when people ask me about investing, they immediately ask about Ripple XRP. >> Does it sound like this? Hey, what what do you what do you think about XRP? >> Yeah, that's exactly the way it sounds. It's I've heard that phrase in that intonation. I just I just bought like 10,000 worth of XRP and I’m trying to it was a good purchase. >> Please tell me I did a good job. >> My answer is it’s it’s garbage, but it sticks around somehow or another. >> Let me know how how it works if you like. I I didn’t dig into it because I didn’t give >> I remember at a conference I was at a conference with like the CTO. I was like at a bar. This is when I worked for uh Boozen Hamilton, I think. >> Allen. >> Maybe Novette. I forget which company I was at when I was doing this. But we were at we were at a conference. Might have been consensus I think. Um it was one of those like swanky after after conference rooftop bar crypto things that I don’t know if they still happen, but that used to be the hallmark of a crypto conference. And I was sitting at the bar next to the CTO of Ripple and I we got into like an argument on like how it works or like why why like whether or not it’s a blockchain and he tried to like convince me through some odd cryptographic uh argument on why it was considered a decentralized ledger or DT. And I was like, you’re dumb. It’s just I not wholesale not being convinced from a technical perspective of like >> so I got three bullet points here. >> I could throw them up but I’m not going to. Uh it has uh this it’s it’s maintained by independent validators not minors. This consensus mechanism uses a unique node list, a UNL and the Ripple protocol uh consensus algorithm, the RPCA, Ripple protocol consensus alg rather than proof of work or proof of stake. Validators agree on which transactions are legitimate every 3 to 5 seconds. >> It’s it’s it’s more akin to PBFT or like raft like the traditional business default tolerant protocols, >> doesn’t it? Like the whole key of this is like it transactions quickly propagate or ripple through the network and like it doesn’t take that many nodes cuz they’re all unique to come to an agreement that a transaction is a real transaction. closer to a distributed protocol than it is like a permissionless blockchain, >> which like this is it’s like it’s closer to like >> distributed file storage than decentralized file storage, but Google does that all the time. Like all all all scalable systems do distributed system >> engineering, but they’re not. We >> need to have like large live audience so they could clip me making that. Hey, what do you think about XRP? >> For real. That’s the face they all make. Uh well, yeah, they raised Ripple Labs raised a bunch of money. It’s not going to go to you XRP holders, so don’t hold your breath, but we know you’re holding your breath. >> You’re going to keep buying that legitimacy. So, it might go up because the government’s going to say something about it and people are stupid. >> Yeah. Same cycles every four years. Watch the government’s and then I know they were like Western Union just partnered with like Salana, I think. So, like there goes that action XRP and I think Swift is going to partner with somebody else too. So, I don’t know what you’re doing XRP holders. I really don’t. But moving on to other things, there’s been some deping. Okay. The dollar slipped out on some of these synthetic stables, right? So, um that’s well played. I don’t I I’m never going to be a professional when I do this podcast. Seems funit. This scared the out of me. Sorry. So, a synthetic stable is like uh I don’t even So, there’s pegged stables which are pegged to like some sort of um fiat currency one to one. Synthetic stables are more like die where there’s like all kinds of financial shenanigans that keep the thing at a dollar price. There’s buckets of things like buckets of crypto and other stables that allow them to quickly swap in and out of keeping their price at a dollar. That’s that’s how that’s how I think it goes. It’s like one big Indiana Jones game where you got to put how much sand in the bag to keep their price at a dollar. Well, they dagg every now and again when the liquidity starts to move in too hard and I guess some some don’t we have an image? >> I don’t don’t >> Yeah, we have an image here. >> Delta neutral synthetic stable USDX. >> I was concerned with your pulling up an image carrying this analogy forward for a hot second. negative 60%. Hold up. Let me see. I’m going to throw a snippet in there real quick >> so that way we can that way we know what we’re talking about here. And this is DJ news, right? So, this for all you DJs out there. >> Only took you 50 minutes to get to it. >> Um, yeah, I’m not very good at this. >> We’ll get good at podcasting one day, maybe. >> There it is. Bow. Yeah, that’s a prepare. >> That’s what you don’t want to happen in uh a stable. >> Take a take a sweet look at that picture audience. That’s what getting pegged, sorry, getting deped feels like. Uh so you can see like >> is that like after pegging? >> Yeah, this is the after peg effect, right? So >> So like you can see it’s clearly getting pegged right here. >> What a shitty situation. And this this line from three to six, there’s some good solid pegging going on right there. But then in at 6.5 to 7 here, I’m saying this like they can see my mouse. They can’t see my mouse, but I’m at least talking between six and seven, which I’m guessing this is days. I don’t know what’s on this x-axis here, but um there’s obviously some >> have $1 of USDX, you now have 51 cents. >> Yeah. I mean, that’s one way of putting it. all over the floor. Yeah. Oh, that sucks that I thought about it. I would on the floor. If I like >> froze, by the way. >> Yeah, it did. >> Who’s yours? >> What? >> No way. Hold. Let me Let me turn off turn back on again. >> Uhoh. >> Now you’re black. >> Oh jeez. Hold. Let me try this. How does that even happen? you you know you pay all this money for this good tech. You pay all this money for this good tech and it’s just like here I’m just going to mute and talk in the background. Pay all this money for this good tech and it just does whatever it wants to do. Anyways, so my face isn’t there anymore so we can just chat about it. But um basically this sucks for traders and it sucks for people who trade. So, if you had a whole bunch of USDX and you were like, “I can’t wait till the market goes down, baby. I’m going to buy some of this stuff over here, baby, with my dollars, my my USDX dollars that are pegged to USD.” Oh, no. You don’t have that much money anymore. You have a lot less money. And it’s probably more, it’s probably worse now. The thing about this that is rough uh is that like stables are built for a specific purpose and that is like some long-term um understanding confidence that what like where you park value will stay at that value. So you’re you’re getting ob in order to that allows you to do business in a lot lot of circumstances. You remove the volatility from the value in which you’re parking for a long period of time such that you can do business. You can do forecasting. Um good luck. Synthetic staples like there’s you break all the confidence right right there. Right. Like now it’s harder to do business because you’re worried the synthetic asset you just created that’s supposed to be stable doesn’t have the one property it’s supposed to have which is it’s stable, right? Uh, so like that’s like you the thing you it’s got one job be stable but like I think it’s it’s a little less known how difficult it is for that to work especially when you’re uh doing it synthetically. You’re making it up on on the process of of of keeping it pegged to a specific value especially because like markets are dynamic. So the way in which they do that can be subject to black swan events or things you didn’t see coming that will dep it. And I don’t know how exactly how these unpegged and and broke from the dollar because I don’t understand the dynamics in which they stayed stable because they’re not all the same. >> What a There’s a lesson I think there’s a lesson in it is that is if you do trade and you are going to be a trader and you are using stables and different groups of stables to um kind of when you’re swapping in and out of the asset um you you might want to know how that stable is composed. And so that will give you a a kind of a glean into what kind of event could lead to a deep pegging, right? Because one thing is for sure, when it slips out, it’s going to be hard to get back in, right? So you want to make sure that you know how the peg is composed. >> Yep. >> So just stick to like one to one redeemable stable coins like USDC and USDT cuz the only thing that they can do is clawbacks and those >> would severely uh ruin trust that people have and using those stable coins if they were ever to do that for >> anything other than a hack. >> So >> D I I say D is pretty good. >> D is dec. Yeah, but it’s composed >> for because it had >> Yeah. >> But USDC I aren’t aren’t stable like the biggest stables like Tether and USDC, they’re buying the US treasuries, right? They’re the ones buying up all those. >> Tether is Tether is. >> So >> Tether is like 17th or something like that. >> So if you have faith in the US government, which has been closed for going on 45 days, uh you know, then you know USDC is probably pretty good for you. But anyways, >> wrap. We have more topic. Yeah, we don’t last one. Last one. The Samurai wallet developer got sentenced to five years of prison time >> as well as a 250. Was it 250k fine? Yeah. >> So >> five years and quarter mill. >> I’ll have to look into the details of that one. I remember I need to be updated on that like that like >> Well, >> he ended up actually >> admitting to money laundering. So >> I don’t feel too bad. What does it say about? >> That’s what No, no, it’s it’s not. He He only admitted because I think it was like a lesser amount of time or something like that. Like that he didn’t do anything wrong. He just wallet. >> Yeah, it was like a plea deal thing. So, >> I need to look into that so I can speak a little more to it than just But like there’s definitely there’s definitely a regulatory assault on privacy and that will probably always be um like well we save that for another another podcast. I’d say like that’s a that’s a deep subject that I’m that’s near and dear to me >> and it’s a it’s a hard balance to make and I think like my my my general thesis is that not it’s like the regulatory industry is leveraging privacy as like the people who use private services is a indication of intent for crime right >> they’re you that’s That’s that’s like the justification for why someone would use a private service. It is intention >> of crime. If I and the argument there is that all criminals will make an effort to obuscate their funds. They will use private services in their intention to crime. But it doesn’t that doesn’t work the other way around. Not all people have intent to crime. There are other uses for privacy. And >> a second. Is that how you say that? >> What >> intent to crime? I don’t know. So, I just said it. Anyway, like the problem is the the the privacy industry, like the privacy advocacy, the people who care about privacy and think it’s normal like me, >> we haven’t done a good enough job highlighting all the other use cases for privacy and why it matters enough such that the overwhelming benefit in my opinion of privacy like offering privacy and using privacy services doesn’t shadow the the group of people that will forever use priv private services for the intent with the intention of doing crime. And so like that argument sticks because people don’t understand why privacy matters to ordinary people who aren’t doing crim criminal activities. So like >> you intend crime, sir. >> You intend a crime. >> Do you intend to crime? >> Uh no I don’t. All right. You may >> I want to I want to talk to you about that like in like a full hour conversation. That’s that is interesting to me as well. >> So maybe next time that’s our that’s topic of the day. >> Hey, we could do it. >> So I’m in the process of like writing about that. >> Next recording. Next recording I don’t think I’ll be in. I I won’t be home. I’ll be away from home. But y’all could do >> you intend to work. >> Do you intend to crime, sir? Okay. Um, hey guys, you know the deal. Shout out to Zoe SA. I see you in those new commercials, girl. I’m liking it. I’m picking up what you’re putting down. Looks like you survived the case. Uh, the crypto case. Uh, shout out to Doicat for some reason. Her head is really flat. And then, um, of course all as always until he comes back around. Shout out to Ahmad doing we know you’re doing your thing out there. Uh, we know you’re doing your thing. All right. Uh, play the outro. It’s a Bitcoin podcast. The only one that’s making your money in you. You listen to the Bitcoin market. You listen to the So Hold on. Listen to the Bitcoin.